Katz Summer Session Top 50

[BlueDude]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2545529

Andy Katz...

Nutshell:
50. G.W.
49. Iowa
48. A. Force
47. Cal
46. Oregon
45. Mich. St.
44. Mich.
43. Hofstra
42. SIU - Tatum + Young = Good Also mentions WSU success.
41. Xavier

Guesses on where WSU and CU come in?

[CUJay]

My guesses:

WSU: 29

CU: 21

[MikeKennedyRulz]

My guesses:

WSU: 29

CU: 21

WSU - 39

CU - 1

[BlueDude]

I was thinking WSU & CU both in the late twenties.

The key things in the first few games will be Wheatshockers Millerless...how will they react? How good is Cous Cous?

Jays, is Funk or Atrain the man. Or will they co-gel?

[shocks771]

My guess....

Wichita State #20

Creighton #23

[DawgieStyle]

honestly if SIU is all the way down at 42...don't be shocked (no pun intended) to see both CU and WSU lower on the list than you anticipate. There certainly isn't a huge gap between CU, WSU, and SIU. In fact many other experts have picked SIU above WSU. So keep all of that in my mind when projecting where CU and WSU. My guess is more like WSU at 35, and CU maybe at 28.

[shocks771]

Not to belittle DawgieStyle's point, but also keep in mind when projecting WSU & CU that back in June Katz had WSU #21 and Creighton #22.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2491109

Also, keep in mind that since that time WSU had added Mekel into the fold. I'm sticking with WSU #20, CU #23.

[XSaluki]

WSU - 15
CU - 24

He is hinting that he likes what the Shockers have going...

[rjl]

Not to belittle DawgieStyle's point, but also keep in mind when projecting WSU & CU that back in June Katz had WSU #21 and Creighton #22.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2491109

Also, keep in mind that since that time WSU had added Mekel into the fold. I'm sticking with WSU #20, CU #23.

Ditto.

And since Katz himself was very high on Mekel in some of his 'insider' blogs around the time he verbaled to WSU over Providence, I'm guessing he'll consider it a factor.

[DawgieStyle]

it really doesn't matter. Katz is just another critic. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong. With the valley, he's not a huge follower, so I don't put a lot of stock in what he says about any of the valley teams. I prefer to go with Kyle Whelliston, Joe Lunardi, and a few guys from SI.com. Also Collegeinsder.com has some guys that actually follow the valley on a regular basis. To that end, I think most of us on Valley talk who actually follow the valley on a regular basis know that CU is the favorite. And after that its SIU and WSU in no particular order. Some critics like SIU, others like WSU. depends on your perception of good basketball.

[rjl]

it really doesn't matter. Katz is just another critic. Sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong. With the valley, he's not a huge follower, so I don't put a lot of stock in what he says about any of the valley teams. I prefer to go with Kyle Whelliston, Joe Lunardi, and a few guys from SI.com. Also Collegeinsder.com has some guys that actually follow the valley on a regular basis. To that end, I think most of us on Valley talk who actually follow the valley on a regular basis know that CU is the favorite. And after that its SIU and WSU in no particular order. Some critics like SIU, others like WSU. depends on your perception of good basketball.

For some reason, Katz had written several articles about WSU over this last offseason.

I can think of at least 3 or 4.

Not that it means anything, I just thought it was interesting.

But I do agree that he undervalued the Salukis.

[bears1]

I guess most of you feel like the Bears wont be in his top 50?

[DawgieStyle]

I guess most of you feel like the Bears wont be in his top 50?

they haven't proven they can attain that level. They aren't a proven product. WSU, SIU, and CU have proven 1)they can duplicate success -OR- 2) can improve or progress. MSU may have the talent, but that's never the question with them. The real Question is whether Barry can pull his head out of his @$# and actually coach the team up to its potential. Based on past tendencies, I say not. So nope, not top 50.

[bears1]

And Air Force does? I guarantee you the bears will be better then Air force this year and no way is Iowa a top 50 in anyones book but theirs.

[rjl]

I guess most of you feel like the Bears wont be in his top 50?

I think they should be.

I guess the problem is that, even after last year, all the sports pundits are afraid to give the "mid-majors" too much credit.

[LincolnJay]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2545529


41. Xavier

Well hell, what the heck is that cream-puff-on-Creighton's-home-schedule doing there?!?!

[WSUbballer]

Well hell, what the heck is that cream-puff-on-Creighton's-home-schedule doing there?!?!
You think Arkansas-Pine Bluff will crack the Top 40?

[rjl]

Well hell, what the heck is that cream-puff-on-Creighton's-home-schedule doing there?!?!

Gosh, if it's to be assumed that Creighton will be ranked in the top 25, it looks as if the jewel of your non-con schedule will be the underdog in that matchup by a fairly decent margin.

Way to schedule for stagnation, Creighton!

[Aargh]

From the SIU summary in the article:

Power-rating push: SIU doesn't have many opportunities, so it has to make the most of the Old Spice Classic against Arkansas and possibly Virginia Tech.
I guess we have Katz opinion about scheduling on record.

Katz also does not list CU as a potential "power-rating" boost for Xavier. Could be an indication that he will have CU below where Valley fans expect CU to be.

[outpost]

I don't know where we'll start, but I hope that CU and WSU are 39 and 40, doesn't matter which is which.

I want WSU to have a chip on its shoulder, and I'm sure CU will.

But realistically, I think we could look for both teams in the lower half of the 21 to 30 range.

[valleyclimber]

bears1, I'd have to agree with you. How in the heck do Air Force and Iowa rate in the top 50 (while no Bears)? Hell, Iowa may only be the 3rd best team in the state behind UNI and Drake this year. :ermm:

[barkeep1967]

The Salukis did win the conference tournament, but Wichita State has more experience, especially in the NCAAs (having reached the Sweet 16). The talent is there but SIU has to do a better job against the top tier of the league on the road.


Well WSU does not have more NCAA experience than SIU.

Not well researched write up. He is just throwing names out there.


Before you Shucks fans start. I am not bashing WSU in any way. I think it is CReighton and then either SIU or WSU.

[smsandmsuson]

bears1, I'd have to agree with you. How in the heck do Air Force and Iowa rate in the top 50 (while no Bears)? Hell, Iowa may only be the 3rd best team in the state behind UNI and Drake this year. :ermm:

i dont understand it either...there is no way that you can tell me either that the Bears arent a top 50 team or that AF and Hawkeyes are better then them...but i think we could be suprised and see three more teams pop up there but i doubt it...

[iSASO]

As long as everyone picks WSU 5th in the Valley, I'm good.

Creighton fans, don't feel all victimized if CU falls below WSU in any poll or rankings. We're all used to seeing Creighton below WSU for the past several years now. Almost a tradition building there...

[cuhoops]

As long as everyone picks WSU 5th in the Valley, I'm good.

Creighton fans, don't feel all victimized if CU falls below WSU in any poll or rankings. We're all used to seeing Creighton below WSU for the past several years now. Almost a tradition building there...


And you say we're obsessed...



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

:jays:

[iSASO]

I've never said that. I just know I'm obsessed with being picked 5th again.

[troutangler]

I don't think SIU was undervalued at 42. I think they are probably in the 40's or 50's somewhere. They return everyone, but they were one loss in the Valley tournament away from having no sniff at the Dance. (Read: They had to win the tournament to get in.)

I think WSU and CU will be between 25-39, which is about right for now.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

I guess most of you feel like the Bears wont be in his top 50?

No way in hell will the Bears be in his top 50. From the first ten picks, it's pretty obvious that he's ranking teams partially on where they finished last year, which explains the presence of last-year's-NCAA-Tournament-but-lost-a-ton Falcons and Hawkeyes.

Andy Katz used to be a pretty knowledgeable hoops writer, back when he was working for the Fresno Bee and stringing for ESPN. Since joining the Worldwide Hype Machine full-time, he's gotten progressively dumber. Kyle Whelliston needs to keep his distance from Bristol, if he doesn't want to spiral into mediocrity the way Katz has.

[rjl]

No way in hell will the Bears be in his top 50. From the first ten picks, it's pretty obvious that he's ranking teams partially on where they finished last year, which explains the presence of last-year's-NCAA-Tournament-but-lost-a-ton Falcons and Hawkeyes.

Andy Katz used to be a pretty knowledgeable hoops writer, back when he was working for the Fresno Bee and stringing for ESPN. Since joining the Worldwide Hype Machine full-time, he's gotten progressively dumber. Kyle Whelliston needs to keep his distance from Bristol, if he doesn't want to spiral into mediocrity the way Katz has.

While that's true, one has to wonder why he's doing a ranking right now, and why he did one in June?

One would think there might be yet another revision before the basketball season starts, and all these offseason polls are just messing with different scenarios before the final Katz poll in October.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

While that's true, one has to wonder why he's doing a ranking right now, and why he did one in June?



Page views = ad revenue.

Unca Disney's gotta keep the stock price up... can't have these darned "seasonal" sports causing fluctuations in the revenue stream...

[Shox21]

Katz now has K-State at 35 and Maryland at 34. Hmmmmmmmm.


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2545574

[outpost]

The Illini wanted the Arizona game in Phoenix for an early-season barometer.

What's this? Did Illinois take a single game with U of A on the road? No return game?

If true..............this is blasphemy!!

[bears1]

K- State and Depaul??? Has this guy lost his mind?

[jt45]

K- State and Depaul??? Has this guy lost his mind?

Very good ? bears1. This guy loses alot of credibility predicting crap like that!

[DoubleJayAlum]

With San Diego State coming in at 38, I hope that the rumors of a game between CU and SDSU come to fruition, especially if the first game is in the Qwest.

[bears1]

With these kinds of predictions, mabey the Bears will make the list. (and should in my opinion). But this guy is showing his basketball IQ with this list of garbage so far.

[MSNSaluki]

Everybody back away from the computer and remember one thing ... IT'S FREAKIN' AUGUST! ANDY KATZ IS BORED! THESE RANKINGS MEAN NOTHING!

[outpost]

Maybe Andy ought to branch out.......and try his hand at prognosticatin' a little pigskin.

Then he wouldn't be as dependent on off-season hoops hype to make his living.

[JVShocker]

Katz isn't really out to do that much work, now, take it easy. K-State and Huggins are the flavor of the month in the Big 12. Will K-State be better? Yeah, probably. Will they be THAT much better? No, probably not. Doesn't mean they won't win some games, I just don't see Top 40.

[rjl]

Page views = ad revenue.

Unca Disney's gotta keep the stock price up... can't have these darned "seasonal" sports causing fluctuations in the revenue stream...

No, I know why he's doing it.

Those were rhetorical questions.

The rankings might not even be the way he actually feels now, but he has to leave room to change them for the final rankings in October or whenever.

[BlueDude]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2545624

Its official, WSU is expected to be better than the Jays. Katz

[DawgieStyle]

No jab at the shockers intended, but now we know this little poll of Andy Katz is a joke. Everyone knows that Creighton is the team to beat this coming year in the valley. Even most shocker fans have gone on record as admitting that despite their current little feud. Andy Katz is officially clueless and I have lost all respect for him as a basketball analyst on all things outside of the BCS conferences. Give my Whelliston and Lunardi. At least they watch the Mid majors play.

[DoubleJayAlum]

The Bluejays also have a host of experience, one of the best coaches in the country and one of the toughest home-court environments for opponents.

Hmmmm....more press about the difficulty of playing in the Qwest...

[DoubleJayAlum]

No jab at the shockers intended, but now we know this little poll of Andy Katz is a joke. Everyone knows that Creighton is the team to beat this coming year in the valley. Even most shocker fans have gone on record as admitting that despite their current little feud. Andy Katz is officially clueless and I have lost all respect for him as a basketball analyst on all things outside of the BCS conferences. Give my Whelliston and Lunardi. At least they watch the Mid majors play.

Its all good DS. The fact that the Valley has two teams in a preseason top 25 is pretty damn cool, no matter what the order!

:valley: :jays:

[RoyalShock]

It's also obvious that Katz prepared this latest installment well before the LSU and Syracuse games were announced, as he mentions them neither in WSU's blurb or Syracuse's.

[SubGod22]

Most of us have said we think CU is number one. But most of us have also said that any of the 3 (SIU, WSU, CU) could win the league. So I wouldn't call Katz clueless based on that.

[DawgieStyle]

Most of us have said we think CU is number one. But most of us have also said that any of the 3 (SIU, WSU, CU) could win the league. So I wouldn't call Katz clueless based on that.

I get your a shocker fan and respect that you are staying the course in supporting your shockers and being diplomatic in saying all 3 could win the league. I respect that and to a degree appreciate that. But as for preseason predictions, which is exactly what this is. You would be crazy to pick against CU as the favorite. Based on all the facts of who has what coming back, etc. etc. etc. etc. CU is by far the clear favorite in the valley. Almost every other expert, fan, etc. have picked up on this. But here is Andy Katz once again proving he is not at all interested in actually studying the MVC. I don't think its a coincidence that WSU made the sweet 16, so he just said, they are #1. It's easier than doing the actual research on the valley. He threw BU out because a blind man couldn't have missed them losing O'bryant. Otherwise he probably would have put them in the the top 10. Look it's nice to see WSU and CU in print as top 30 teams, but I'm not as excited by it as I should be because its evident Andy Katz didn't do his research and is just chucking names out there based on last season alone. He's an idiot plain and simple.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

I get your a shocker fan and respect that you are staying the course in supporting your shockers and being diplomatic in saying all 3 could win the league. I respect that and to a degree appreciate that. But as for preseason predictions, which is exactly what this is. You would be crazy to pick against CU as the favorite. Based on all the facts of who has what coming back, etc. etc. etc. etc. CU is by far the clear favorite in the valley. Almost every other expert, fan, etc. have picked up on this. But here is Andy Katz once again proving he is not at all interested in actually studying the MVC. I don't think its a coincidence that WSU made the sweet 16, so he just said, they are #1. It's easier than doing the actual research on the valley. He threw BU out because a blind man couldn't have missed them losing O'bryant. Otherwise he probably would have put them in the the top 10. Look it's nice to see WSU and CU in print as top 30 teams, but I'm not as excited by it as I should be because its evident Andy Katz didn't do his research and is just chucking names out there based on last season alone. He's an idiot plain and simple.

Switch SIU and WSU, would you be saying the same thing then?

[shocks02]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2545574
31-40

[shocks02]

http://espn.go.com/dickvitale/060713Top40.html
Dick Vitale's Top 40

[WuDrWu]

I get your a shocker fan and respect that you are staying the course in supporting your shockers and being diplomatic in saying all 3 could win the league. I respect that and to a degree appreciate that. But as for preseason predictions, which is exactly what this is. You would be crazy to pick against CU as the favorite. Based on all the facts of who has what coming back, etc. etc. etc. etc. CU is by far the clear favorite in the valley. Almost every other expert, fan, etc. have picked up on this. But here is Andy Katz once again proving he is not at all interested in actually studying the MVC. I don't think its a coincidence that WSU made the sweet 16, so he just said, they are #1. It's easier than doing the actual research on the valley. He threw BU out because a blind man couldn't have missed them losing O'bryant. Otherwise he probably would have put them in the the top 10. Look it's nice to see WSU and CU in print as top 30 teams, but I'm not as excited by it as I should be because its evident Andy Katz didn't do his research and is just chucking names out there based on last season alone. He's an idiot plain and simple.

Crazy, idiot and clueless. Three words you used to describe a guy that does this for a living. Is there a chance that he might know a bit more than us fans.....just a chance? Also just because he selected WSU a whole 2 spots ahead of CU (obviously a huge chasm:no: ) hardly qualifies as an idiot. If he selects KU ahead of Florida for 1 and 2 does that make him crazy? Also, for anyone that chooses WSU over CU remember that CU lost far more than WSU over the summer. WSU lost Miller while CU lost Mathies, Day and Motz and I think had a transfer (Bishop? I could be wrong) as well as there is at least a tiny bit of concern as to the timing of the return of Dotzler.

Please think before you type words like, crazy, clueless and idiot.

[blueblood]

Along the lines of some other honest questions; How many of the top 50 will be accepting to be bought in a buyout game?

[DawgieStyle]

Yes I would be saying the same thing. Being totally objective about this is the key. CU is the favorite hands down. If SIU were picked ahead of CU, I would be rolling on the floor laughing. Not that I don't think SIU could eventually win the valley this year, but as for picking preseason favorite, that would be a bit comical based on what's on "paper" for the up coming season.

Do I still think CU is being over hyped? Yes.
Do I think CU is going to run away with the valley crown? NO.
Do I think CU has to prove that whats on paper is as good as what's on the court? Absolutely!

BUT! Do I still think CU is the clear favorite? YES!

[WuDrWu]

Along the lines of some other honest questions; How many of the top 50 will be accepting to be bought in a buyout game?

Anyone with courage, guts and intelligence to better their program.

So, in other words, not CU. How's that for an honest answer?

[DawgieStyle]

Crazy, idiot and clueless. Three words you used to describe a guy that does this for a living. Is there a chance that he might know a bit more than us fans.....just a chance? Also just because he selected WSU a whole 2 spots ahead of CU (obviously a huge chasm:no: ) hardly qualifies as an idiot. If he selects KU ahead of Florida for 1 and 2 does that make him crazy? Also, for anyone that chooses WSU over CU remember that CU lost far more than WSU over the summer. WSU lost Miller while CU lost Mathies, Day and Motz and I think had a transfer (Bishop? I could be wrong) as well as there is at least a tiny bit of concern as to the timing of the return of Dotzler.

Please think before you type words like, crazy, clueless and idiot.

Obviously you need to think before you speak as well. You are crazy, clueless, and an idiot, and most importantly BIASED if you think WSU is the pre seseason favorite. Try being a bit objective about it and take off the yellow colored glasses for a while and actually study basketball and stop reading the hype in the local wichita news paper.

[WuDrWu]

Yes I would be saying the same thing. Being totally objective about this is the key. CU is the favorite hands down. If SIU were picked ahead of CU, I would be rolling on the floor laughing. Not that I don't think SIU could eventually win the valley this year, but as for picking preseason favorite, that would be a bit comical based on what's on "paper" for the up coming season.

Do I still think CU is being over hyped? Yes.
Do I think CU is going to run away with the valley crown? NO.
Do I think CU has to prove that whats on paper is as good as what's on the court? Absolutely!

BUT! Do I still think CU is the clear favorite? YES!

Fact: By default CU isn't the favorite, hands down, or people that get paid to do this for a living wouldn't be picking other teams ahead of them.

You can "think" CU is the clear favorite, that is your opinion. Your opinion, however, does not define others as clueless.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Obviously you need to think before you speak as well. You are crazy, clueless, and an idiot, and most importantly BIASED if you think WSU is the pre seseason favorite. Try being a bit objective about it and take off the yellow colored glasses for a while and actually study basketball and stop reading the hype in the local wichita news paper.

Newspaper is one word.

[DawgieStyle]

Newspaper is one word.

nice try MKR...not getting into "spelling" today..

[WuDrWu]

Obviously you need to think before you speak as well. You are crazy, clueless, and an idiot, and most importantly BIASED if you think WSU is the pre seseason favorite. Try being a bit objective about it and take off the yellow colored glasses for a while and actually study basketball and stop reading the hype in the local wichita news paper.


You're digging your own grave. Where in my text did I say I thought WSU was the favorite? I simply pointed out that there are reasons to look at alternatives to the CU is the runaway favorite theory. You, my friend, need to be more objective, not I.

I simply pointed out your narrowmindedness and offered an alternative view. You, on the other hand, have now called 2 people clueless. :no:


PS We are all biased in some way. That's what makes us human.

[DawgieStyle]

Fact: By default CU isn't the favorite, hands down, or people that get paid to do this for a living wouldn't be picking other teams ahead of them.

You can "think" CU is the clear favorite, that is your opinion. Your opinion, however, does not define others as clueless.


Whats it say when this so called "expert" is in the minority in his profession? His other expert colleagues have mostly picked CU as the favorite.

Let me see here......

1 expert who thinks WSU is the favorite

-or-

200 experts who think CU is the favorite....

Yah, I know where to put my money in Vegas.

[DawgieStyle]

You're digging your own grave. Where in my text did I say I thought WSU was the favorite? I simply pointed out that there are reasons to look at alternatives to the CU is the runaway favorite theory. You, my friend, need to be more objective, not I.

I simply pointed out your narrowmindedness and offered an alternative view. You, on the other hand, have now called 2 people clueless. :no:

Katz is clueless when he is in the severe minority of his profession...that signals a problem in my opinion.

[MSNSaluki]

C'mon, Dawgie ... :doh:
Don't start any **** with our friends from Wichita and Omaha right now. They don't have the time to argue with you and each other!

[WuDrWu]

C'mon, Dawgie ... :doh:
Don't start any **** with our friends from Wichita and Omaha right now. They don't have the time to argue with you and each other!


:lol: :lol: :lol:


Good one Joey!

[DawgieStyle]

C'mon, Dawgie ... :doh:
Don't start any **** with our friends from Wichita and Omaha right now. They don't have the time to argue with you and each other!

hey im trying to get off the CU/WSU thing. I'm even Bashing Andy "doesn't follow MVC" Katz. But to no avail. All I get back is how Andy Katz is God for picking WSU above CU, and how that possibly couldn't be incorrect. But hey, I'm trying. I didn't even suggest that SIU should be ahead of them. It's not worth it anymore.

[MSNSaluki]

:lol: :lol: :lol:


Good one Joey!

:original:

[MSNSaluki]

hey im trying to get off the CU/WSU thing. I'm even Bashing Andy "doesn't follow MVC" Katz. But to no avail. All I get back is how Andy Katz is God for picking WSU above CU, and how that possibly couldn't be incorrect. But hey, I'm trying. I didn't even suggest that SIU should be ahead of them. It's not worth it anymore.

We're cool!:yes:

[DawgieStyle]

C'mon, Dawgie ... :doh:
Don't start any **** with our friends from Wichita and Omaha right now. They don't have the time to argue with you and each other!

oh come on joey, I try to start some topical conversation about how Andy Katz might actually be wrong. God for bid, I know, But let's give some credit. At least It's not about how much better Omaha is than Wichita.

[DawgieStyle]

We're cool!:yes:

glad we're cool. Didn't want to offend one of the only "sane" people on valley talk. and I'm being Serious. You actually have some objectivity. It's refreshing. God forbid that SIU not be #1 at everything in our eyes. We are smart enough to realize that although we love our SIU and Carbondale, it isn't God's gift to everyone, or #1 at all things valley.

[SiuCubFan8]

Yes I would be saying the same thing. Being totally objective about this is the key. CU is the favorite hands down. If SIU were picked ahead of CU, I would be rolling on the floor laughing. Not that I don't think SIU could eventually win the valley this year, but as for picking preseason favorite, that would be a bit comical based on what's on "paper" for the up coming season.

Do I still think CU is being over hyped? Yes.
Do I think CU is going to run away with the valley crown? NO.
Do I think CU has to prove that whats on paper is as good as what's on the court? Absolutely!

BUT! Do I still think CU is the clear favorite? YES!


How is CU being overhyped?
You said they are the and I quote "Hands down favorite".

[DawgieStyle]

How is CU being overhyped?
You said they are the and I quote "Hands down favorite".

I do think they are hands down favorites of the valley. But at the same time, I also don't beleive for a second that they are a top 10 team or even a top 15 team as some polls and CU fans would suggest. That I don't buy, that's being over hyped.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

hey im trying to get off the CU/WSU thing. I'm even Bashing Andy "doesn't follow MVC" Katz. But to no avail. All I get back is how Andy Katz is God for picking WSU above CU, and how that possibly couldn't be incorrect. But hey, I'm trying. I didn't even suggest that SIU should be ahead of them. It's not worth it anymore.

Did you even read WuDr's comment or did you read part of it and "interpret" the rest of what he was saying? He never said Katz was god, he is simply saying not everybody thinks CU is hands down the favorite and that there are valid arguments for picking WSU over CU based on what each team lost and questions on those players returning from injuries. For the record, I would put CU ahead of WSU, but I wouldn't say it was hands down.

[SiuCubFan8]

I do think they are hands down favorites of the valley. But at the same time, I also don't beleive for a second that they are a top 10 team or even a top 15 team as some polls and CU fans would suggest. That I don't buy, that's being over hyped.

Are there tons of polls with CU in the Top 15? Maybe there are and I am just missing them.
I think most polls have CU in the top 25 are right on. I just do not see how CU is being over hyped.

[bears1]

Wow! so I guess he has the Bears somewhere in his top 10-15 now!!! Can't wait to see where he ranks us.:no: :bears:

[DawgieStyle]

Did you even read WuDr's comment or did you read part of it and "interpret" the rest of what he was saying? He never said Katz was god, he is simply saying not everybody thinks CU is hands down the favorite and that there are valid arguments for picking WSU over CU based on what each team lost and questions on those players returning from injuries. For the record, I would put CU ahead of WSU, but I wouldn't say it was hands down.

thats cool if thats your opinion MKR..

PS, Your avatar is pretty funny. I know it adds to the whole CU/WSU feud going on...but I don't care what you say, that's funny right there.

[SiuCubFan8]

Did you even read WuDr's comment or did you read part of it and "interpret" the rest of what he was saying? He never said Katz was god, he is simply saying not everybody thinks CU is hands down the favorite and that there are valid arguments for picking WSU over CU based on what each team lost and questions on those players returning from injuries. For the record, I would put CU ahead of WSU, but I wouldn't say it was hands down.

I wouldn't be putting CU ahead of SIU until they can figure out a way to beat them. 0-6 the last 3 years! :grin: :salukis: :jays: :shockers:

[rjl]

The thing is that Katz writes more articles about the Valley than almost any other national journalist.

So, if anyone would be in touch with what's going on here, I would have figured it would have been him.

[rjl]

Along the lines of some other honest questions; How many of the top 50 will be accepting to be bought in a buyout game?

Here's another question:

How many in the top 50's non-conference-schedule jewel is ranked 17 spots behind them?

Looks like almost everyone has a chance to move up in the rankings on their own accord just by winning a game.

Almost everyone.

[DaShox]

"The Bluejays will need to be a bit tougher on the road in the Valley and need a few statement wins in nonconference play."

Like Syracuse?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

"The Bluejays will need to be a bit tougher on the road in the Valley and need a few statement wins in nonconference play."

Like Syracuse?

There are no opportunities for STATEMENT wins on their non-con this year so I don't see that changing. This is unfortunate for the rest of the Valley teams RPI's.

[DawgieStyle]

The thing is that Katz writes more articles about the Valley than almost any other national journalist.

So, if anyone would be in touch with what's going on here, I would have figured it would have been him.

yah but use some common sense here. Do you really think that WSU is the favorite as Katz is suggesting? I know they are your team and all, but really does this make sense to you? Step out side the box before you answer that as well, and really analyze it. For most of the year we've said it was CU, then SIU and WSU as a toss up for second. But now here is Katz suggesting

1) WSU is far ahead of SIU. Which is contrary to what most of us think, as well as experts. We beleieve they are fairly equal.

2) WSU is ahead of CU. Which again as we've stated hasn't been the consensus from us or many other experts.

Basically Katz has WSU leap frogging both SIU and CU in some of our eyes. For many of us that's just putting a little too much into Mr. Katz's stance as an expert.

[SiuCubFan8]

yah but use some common sense here. Do you really think that WSU is the favorite as Katz is suggesting? I know they are your team and all, but really does this make sense to you? Step out side the box before you answer that as well, and really analyze it. For most of the year we've said it was CU, then SIU and WSU as a toss up for second. But now here is Katz suggesting

1) WSU is far ahead of SIU. Which is contrary to what most of us think, as well as experts. We beleieve they are fairly equal.

2) WSU is ahead of CU. Which again as we've stated hasn't been the consensus from us or many other experts.

Basically Katz has WSU leap frogging both SIU and CU in some of our eyes. For many of us that's just putting a little too much into Mr. Katz's stance as an expert.

It is his frickin opinoin, GET OVER IT!

[blueblood]

There are no opportunities for STATEMENT wins on their non-con this year so I don't see that changing. This is unfortunate for the rest of the Valley teams RPI's.


So far CU will play 3 teams at home and 3 teams away in the top 5o so your statement does not make sense.

[crjays1]

Does it really matter who Katz may think is the best in the Valley?

Congrats WSU at getting #22

WSU deserves the credit.

Many of us who watch the Valley year in and year out have often had our thoughts about who is the best and been plain wrong. For example the year MP was at SIU everyone here thought they would finish 5th. We were very wrong!

With my Bluecolored glasses belive that CU has the best squad this year, however WSU and SIU will be very salty.

[SiuCubFan8]

Does it really matter who Katz may think is the best in the Valley?

Congrats WSU at getting #22

WSU deserves the credit.

Many of us who watch the Valley year in and year out have often had our thoughts about who is the best and been plain wrong. For example the year MP was at SIU everyone here thought they would finish 5th. We were very wrong!

With my Bluecolored glasses belive that CU has the best squad this year, however WSU and SIU will be very salty.
:clap:

[DawgieStyle]

It is his frickin opinoin, GET OVER IT!

wow, thanks for breaking the chains of discussion. God forbid you differ with someones opinion and point it out......or want to counter it with your own opinion. OR god forbid point out what you think is wrong with their opinion.

At least its basketball related! and not about Omaha and Wichita!

[SiuCubFan8]

wow, thanks for breaking the chains of discussion. God forbid you differ with someones opinion and point it out......or want to counter it with your own opinion. OR god forbid point out what you think is wrong with their opinion.

At least its basketball related! and not about Omaha and Wichita!

Differing with opinoin is great and all but you just go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and make the same points.

Actually I just wanted to get back to what this board was made for............................................... .................................................. ..........WSU/CU pissing matches.:lol:

[Aargh]

These polls are pretty much all alike. The "research" is to look at last year's results, particularly in post-season. Then subtract starters lost and add notable Fr signed. The "research" is probably done by interns.

Transfers (particularly in) are often missed. The value of returning players is mostly determined by "who is returning that scored the most". A season-long 35% shooter who jacks it up 20 times a game would be credited as a team leader because of the number that appears in the "ppg" column.

By the time we get to October most polls will seem to be based on reading someone else's polls. There is value to a team in being underrated in these polls. Everyone who follows Valley basketball seriously probably thinks MSU is way underrated this year. MSU's players might just go on a mission to prove the pollsters are wrong.

[jt45]

Does it really matter who Katz may think is the best in the Valley?

Congrats WSU at getting #22

WSU deserves the credit.

Many of us who watch the Valley year in and year out have often had our thoughts about who is the best and been plain wrong. For example the year MP was at SIU everyone here thought they would finish 5th. We were very wrong!

With my Bluecolored glasses belive that CU has the best squad this year, however WSU and SIU will be very salty.

Well said my bluecolored glasses wearing freind. You can make all kinds of arguments for any 3 of those teams being ranked anywhere the 3 of those teams were ranked. I find it exciting to see 3 teams in the top 50. I think you can also make a very good argument for Mo St being in the Top 50. I like the Valley's chances against just about anyone. I think that for the most part everyones schedules are pretty darn solid. It leads me to believe that with some unexpected OOC wins that this year will be another banner year for the Valley!!

[MikeKennedyRulz]

So far CU will play 3 teams at home and 3 teams away in the top 5o so your statement does not make sense.

List these teams and tell me which one, if CU was to win, would be a STATEMENT win come selection time.

[blueblood]

Keep in mind this is just so far, there may be more;

Home; WSU, SIU, George Mason
Away; WSU, SIU, Xavier

Take your pick.

[valleyclimber]

Aargh, think you're dead-on right about many who follow Valley b-ball consider MSU to be getting unnecessarily "lost" in all the MVC preseason hype. I, for one, also think the Bears are going to be on a mission to prove many experts wrong. MSU will be near the top and should suprise even some of us die-hard Valley fans. I'm still thinking 4 teams in the Big Dance with a way outside chance at 5 (alot of things would have to fall into place for there to be a fifth team).

It's always funny to look back a year on some of the previous season's pre-season polls. I've seen plenty of pre-season top 20 teams not even make the NIT when all is said and done. The polls are fun and create some interest, but as for accuracy...hmmmm? :ermm:

[TrueBlueJay]

Actually Xavier is at home as well - we play in Cincinnati next season.

Hopefully they can close the deal with SD St. That would add another top 50 team at home.

[WSUfan]

I guess most of you feel like the Bears wont be in his top 50?
I think they should be in the top 50. Who cares what an outside observer says?

[WSUfan]

I wouldn't be putting CU ahead of SIU until they can figure out a way to beat them. 0-6 the last 3 years! :grin: :salukis: :jays: :shockers:
I expect SIU to be tough this year. I don't think anyone should be the Valley favorite; any one of CU, MSU, SIU & WSU could win the season title IMHO. Who knows; DU or UNI might win the MVC tourney.

[WSUfan]

yah but use some common sense here. Do you really think that WSU is the favorite as Katz is suggesting? I know they are your team and all, but really does this make sense to you? Step out side the box before you answer that as well, and really analyze it. For most of the year we've said it was CU, then SIU and WSU as a toss up for second. But now here is Katz suggesting

1) WSU is far ahead of SIU. Which is contrary to what most of us think, as well as experts. We beleieve they are fairly equal.

2) WSU is ahead of CU. Which again as we've stated hasn't been the consensus from us or many other experts.

Basically Katz has WSU leap frogging both SIU and CU in some of our eyes. For many of us that's just putting a little too much into Mr. Katz's stance as an expert.

I think it will be interesting to return to this post in March. WSU might run away with the Valley title. CU might run away with the Valley title. SIU might run away with the Valley title. It should be a fun ride.

[rjl]

Keep in mind this is just so far, there may be more;

Home; WSU, SIU, George Mason
Away; WSU, SIU, Xavier

Take your pick.

Is George Mason anywhere in the top 50? I was looking for them but didn't see them. They aren't ranked anywhere on the list so far (21 - 50), and with the amount of talent they lost to graduation, I doubt they'll be ranked in the top 20.

WSU currently has 3 non-conference opponents in Katz' top 50 (assuming KSU beats USC in the Vegas Tournament, which I wouldn't bet on), two of which are a chance for WSU to move forward as they will be an opportunity for WSU to move up in the poll (SU and LSU).

We obviously have three conference opponents in the top 50 (UNI, CU, SIU), so a total of 6 teams, and at least 9 games this year.

[blueblood]

Historic event. I confused GM with GW.

[MSNSaluki]

glad we're cool. Didn't want to offend one of the only "sane" people on valley talk. and I'm being Serious. You actually have some objectivity. It's refreshing. God forbid that SIU not be #1 at everything in our eyes. We are smart enough to realize that although we love our SIU and Carbondale, it isn't God's gift to everyone, or #1 at all things valley.

While we have a lot to be proud of, I'm not going to walk around with blinders on. There are a lot of good things going on in the Valley and we'll have to stay on top of our game to remain competitive.

We're definitely cool!:salukis:

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Keep in mind this is just so far, there may be more;

Home; WSU, SIU, George Mason
Away; WSU, SIU, Xavier

Take your pick.

He said no STATEMENT games in the non-conference. 4 of the games you listed are conference games. GM and Xavier are not statement games, IMO.

[blueblood]

and there are 18 pages of opinions of posters that feel a buyout game is not a statement either

[MikeKennedyRulz]

and there are 18 pages of opinions of posters that feel a buyout game is not a statement either

True, but come the end of the season and the committee looks at this:

Team A:

Beat Xavier
Beat GM

Team B:

Beat LSU
Beat Syracuse

Which looks better?

[rjl]

and there are 18 pages of opinions of posters that feel a buyout game is not a statement either

What?

The 18 pages of posts are arguing the method in which WSU is getting the statement game, not the game itself.

How in the hell is that not a statement game?

Do you even know what the term 'statement game' means?

Anyone who says going to Syracuse and playing them in their house isn't a statement is just a moron.

Blueblood, you recently whined for the 'glory' days of Valleytalk when people all got along and sang kumbaya all day.

If that was the case, you just had a whole lot of people who looked the other way when you posted nonsense like this.

[blueblood]

True, but come the end of the season and the committee looks at this:

Team A:

Beat Xavier
Beat GM

Team B:

Beat LSU
Beat Syracuse

Which looks better?


Truthfullly it depends on so many factors that there is no way to answer the question.

[DawgieStyle]

and now we're back to WSU V. CU.....every freaking thread. Get over your selfs.

[iSASO]

Truthfully, beating the #1 team in the country means more than beating the #330 team in the country.

It's all a matter of degrees.

[blueblood]

What?

The 18 pages of posts are arguing the method in which WSU is getting the statement game, not the game itself.

How in the hell is that not a statement game?

Do you even know what the term 'statement game' means?

Anyone who says going to Syracuse and playing them in their house isn't a statement is just a moron.

Blueblood, you recently whined for the 'glory' days of Valleytalk when people all got along and sang kumbaya all day.

If that was the case, you just had a whole lot of people who looked the other way when you posted nonsense like this.


1. I disagreee as do many others with WSU taking a buyout game. Its not a statement unless you win and at this point its not a statement, its desperation. If WSU loses it becomes perspiration. Enough said. Whats done is done.

2. I have decided that the "glory days" of VT are gone forever. I have heard a new board is in the works for invited guests. I'm in. In the mean time love the one your with. If you can't change em, join em. whatever. VT has become a smack and smack only board. Thats not changing. So I might as well smack until something better comes along.

[DawgieStyle]

its not the smack that's bad. Smack is fun, if done in moderation. It's more of the fact that every single freaking thread gets hi jacked some how, some way by WSU/CU banter about how their town, school, song, schedule, etc. is better than the others. It's rediculous. You don't see any fans of any other schools acting like you 2 do. Heck, if 2 sides of fans were to act like this, you'd expect BU and ISU to over the war on 74. They actually are rivals, which is more than I can say about the pissing contest you guys keep having.

[rjl]

and now we're back to WSU V. CU.....every freaking thread. Get over your selfs.

It's not CU/WSU smack talk.

It was calling out an ignorant statement.

Something you should be used to seeing follow your posts around.

[blueblood]

its not the smack that's bad. Smack is fun, if done in moderation. It's more of the fact that every single freaking thread gets hi jacked some how, some way by WSU/CU banter about how their town, school, song, schedule, etc. is better than the others. It's rediculous. You don't see any fans of any other schools acting like you 2 do. Heck, if 2 sides of fans were to act like this, you'd expect BU and ISU to over the war on 74. They actually are rivals, which is more than I can say about the pissing contest you guys keep having.


The number of VT posters is way down. Especially SIU and MSU posters. Your take on why that is.

[rjl]

1. I disagreee as do many others with WSU taking a buyout game. Its not a statement unless you win and at this point its not a statement, its desperation. If WSU loses it becomes perspiration. Enough said. Whats done is done.

OK. So you don't know what the term "statement game" means.

Thanks.

[blueblood]

Syracuse being able to buy a top 25 team for a home only series is a statement.

[DawgieStyle]

The number of VT posters is way down. Especially SIU and MSU posters. Your take on why that is.

actually, until yesterday, my own appearance on this board was way down.

Why are other saluki faithful and Misery staters not on valley talk anymore? I'm sure its more than one reason.

1) I'm sure the sure whole CU/WSU thing is starting to wear thin on everyone, but I doubt that is totally to blame, but it does hold some blame.

2) it is the off season. Some fans just don't use the chat boards unless there are actually games.

3) I think maybe there are too many CU and WSU fans compared to all other fans. (especially WSU fans, way more than anyone else). I'm not sure that is something you can or want to fix. But maybe other fans feel intimidated or feel like they have no "back up" when they do post.

4) I am guilty of this, but the threads quickly turn from basketball or valley sports too something completelly off the wall.

5) My number one reason why Valley talk numbers are down? THe fun jabbing, heckling, sarcasm, etc. has turned from fun poking and prodding, to personal attacks and knocking anyone down with a new or different idea. It is no longer safe to state a personal opinion if it differs too much with the "norm."

Those are my reasons. But hey I'm still here, so it hasn't gotten that bad yet. My gut feeling is things will get much better once the season starts.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

1. I disagreee as do many others with WSU taking a buyout game. Its not a statement unless you win and at this point its not a statement, its desperation. If WSU loses it becomes perspiration. Enough said. Whats done is done.

2. I have decided that the "glory days" of VT are gone forever. I have heard a new board is in the works for invited guests. I'm in. In the mean time love the one your with. If you can't change em, join em. whatever. VT has become a smack and smack only board. Thats not changing. So I might as well smack until something better comes along.

:crying:

See ya and don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out. If you can't handle somebody daring to question the "dominance" of the BJ's then have your own boring board with the invited guests and I guarantee you it will be a snooze fest.

[rjl]

Syracuse being able to buy a top 25 team for a home only series is a statement.

No, you can stop now.

We already know that you don't know what "statement game" means.

[blueblood]

Would these be an example of #5 Dawgie style?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

It is no longer safe to state a personal opinion if it differs too much with the "norm."

Kinda like Katz. When he states his opinion, he is called clueless and an idiot by certain people. :no:

[bears1]

He is an idiot!

[DawgieStyle]

Kinda like Katz. When he states his opinion, he is called clueless and an idiot by certain people. :no:

He should know better. He's an expert, apparently. When he gives his opinion to the masses, which being an ESPN analyst allows him to do. His opinion better be factual and researched. It wasn't. So yes in this particular case He is an idiot and clueless. There is a far cry from some jo-blo on VT stating their opinion versus Andy Katz, a prominent media member who is supposed to do his research, be un-biased (yah right, no media person is, but they are supposed to be), and report the facts. And if they are to give their opinion, it had better be backed up by oodles of facts and research, other wise, yah I'm calling the guy an idiot. He gets paid to research basketball, he dang well better do it when he prints something for the masses. In this case, it is clearly evident he didn't. That upsets me.

[SiuCubFan8]

He should know better. He's an expert, apparently. When he gives his opinion to the masses, which being an ESPN analyst allows him to do. His opinion better be factual and researched. It wasn't. So yes in this particular case He is an idiot and clueless. There is a far cry from some jo-blo on VT stating their opinion versus Andy Katz, a prominent media member who is supposed to do his research, be un-biased (yah right, no media person is, but they are supposed to be), and report the facts. And if they are to give their opinion, it had better be backed up by oodles of facts and research, other wise, yah I'm calling the guy an idiot. He gets paid to research basketball, he dang well better do it when he prints something for the masses. In this case, it is clearly evident he didn't. That upsets me.

Explain to me what was so crazy about how he ranked the MVC teams.
I thought we all agreed that SIU/WSU/CU all could win the MVC?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

He should know better. He's an expert, apparently. When he gives his opinion to the masses, which being an ESPN analyst allows him to do. His opinion better be factual and researched. It wasn't. So yes in this particular case He is an idiot and clueless. There is a far cry from some jo-blo on VT stating their opinion versus Andy Katz, a prominent media member who is supposed to do his research, be un-biased (yah right, no media person is, but they are supposed to be), and report the facts. And if they are to give their opinion, it had better be backed up by oodles of facts and research, other wise, yah I'm calling the guy an idiot. He gets paid to research basketball, he dang well better do it when he prints something for the masses. In this case, it is clearly evident he didn't. That upsets me.

How do you know he didn't do any research? Do you honestly think he put a bunch of teams in a hat and pulled them out 1 by 1 to come up with his list? You shouldn't just assume he didn't research before making the list. Just because you feel like your salukis were slighted doesn't mean he didn't put any thought into it.

[SiuCubFan8]

IMO, SIU did get slighted a little bit but I am not going to get all bent out of shape because of it. It is a preseason poll and SIU has been very high in some and not as high in others. These are just meant to keep you thinking about college bball during the offseason.

[DawgieStyle]

Explain to me what was so crazy about how he ranked the MVC teams.
I thought we all agreed that SIU/WSU/CU all could win the MVC?

No, you all agreed on that. If CU doesn't win the valley, it will be an upset, a mild one, but an upset none the less. For starters if all of YOU agree any of the 3 could win the valley why is SIU ranked so far away from CU and WSU.

Secondly, Why is WSU ranked above CU? Enuff said on that already.

Thirdly how is air force in before MSU?

How is Sandiego Freaking State ahead of SIU? Seriously!

How is Depaul ahead of SIU, this is the same Depaul team that got blown out of the water by Bradley, WITH OUT! POB!

Not to mention that Kansas state is even on the list. Bob Huggins is no Bob Knight or Coach K. K-state will still suck.

And finally, although great for the Valley, does anyone really buy that CU and WSU are going to be better than Kentucky and Indiana?

And you wonder why I call Andy Katz an IDIOT!

[Maggie]

I have been reading this forum for quite sometime and find it, generally, very informative. I don't live in the Midwest anymore so it is a good way for me to keep up on the conference. However, this ongoing war between CU and WSU fans is getting quite annoying. Especially in the context of Katz top 50 list.
Every team in the MVC still has a lot to prove to the national media. Frankly, I was worried before the tournament last year about the performance of UNI, SIU, WSU and Bradley. I was pleasantly surprised – although I must admit I expected SIU to give West Virginia more of a game. This coming season don’t think for a moment the BCS schools are not paying attention to the MVC and to a lesser extent teams from the CAA. They are. In there minds the MVC is stealing their bids. No BCS teams is going to overlook a MVC opponent. The non conference play is going to be more difficult than ever before. BCS teams don't want to lose to the Valley and non-BSC teams want to say they beat a MVC squad.
WSU fans, CU fans and indeed fans of every team in the MVC should understand that strong teams from top to bottom is good for MVC as a whole. That way if CU actually beats SIU on its home floor – it will actually mean something.
As for Katz – he is lazy. Katz is paying lip service to the MVC because he feels he has to at this point. Why? Because the MVC didn't fall flat in the tournament. He does not respect the league. Keep that in mind. His rankings of CU and WSU respectively is a wash and anyone that says otherwise is clutching at straws to promote their own team. His ranking of SIU is low but at least they are ranked in the top 50 (see MSU's absence). Still all in all that is 3 valley teams in the top 50. Not too bad. Now back it up.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a WSU fan and have been from the late 70s and 80s. So I do remember the good teams and the teams in the 90s. So to all WSU fans – enjoy the success and you have a right to be excited. But don't get to cocky. All valley teams deserve your respect – and that is a good thing.

[Fetz86]

Yes i think many believe IU and Kentucky will not be as good as those valley teams this year. Mo State should be in the top 50 and there is nothing wrong with picking WSU ahead of CU, and its only a few spots, its not like one is in the top 15 and the other is 40.

[DoubleJayAlum]

And finally, although great for the Valley, does anyone really buy that CU and WSU are going to be better than Kentucky and Indiana?

And you wonder why I call Andy Katz an IDIOT!

I absolutely believe that CU ad WSU can beat Indiana this year. Kentucky is a tougher call, but with what Cu and WSU have returning, I suspect they would each play UK very closely and could win the game.

How's that for unity?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

IMO, SIU did get slighted a little bit but I am not going to get all bent out of shape because of it. It is a preseason poll and SIU has been very high in some and not as high in others. These are just meant to keep you thinking about college bball during the offseason.

Exactly. I think the Salukis were put too far down on the list also. But, that doesn't automatically make Katz an idiot or clueless, and it doesn't mean he didn't put any thought or research into this process as some on here are saying. These polls do not mean a whole lot as the season is nearly three months from starting and we are a LONG way from March.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

I have been reading this forum for quite sometime and find it, generally, very informative. I don't live in the Midwest anymore so it is a good way for me to keep up on the conference. However, this ongoing war between CU and WSU fans is getting quite annoying. Especially in the context of Katz top 50 list.
Every team in the MVC still has a lot to prove to the national media. Frankly, I was worried before the tournament last year about the performance of UNI, SIU, WSU and Bradley. I was pleasantly surprised – although I must admit I expected SIU to give West Virginia more of a game. This coming season don’t think for a moment the BCS schools are not paying attention to the MVC and to a lesser extent teams from the CAA. They are. In there minds the MVC is stealing their bids. No BCS teams is going to overlook a MVC opponent. The non conference play is going to be more difficult than ever before. BCS teams don't want to lose to the Valley and non-BSC teams want to say they beat a MVC squad.
WSU fans, CU fans and indeed fans of every team in the MVC should understand that strong teams from top to bottom is good for MVC as a whole. That way if CU actually beats SIU on its home floor – it will actually mean something.
As for Katz – he is lazy. Katz is paying lip service to the MVC because he feels he has to at this point. Why? Because the MVC didn't fall flat in the tournament. He does not respect the league. Keep that in mind. His rankings of CU and WSU respectively is a wash and anyone that says otherwise is clutching at straws to promote their own team. His ranking of SIU is low but at least they are ranked in the top 50 (see MSU's absence). Still all in all that is 3 valley teams in the top 50. Not too bad. Now back it up.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a WSU fan and have been from the late 70s and 80s. So I do remember the good teams and the teams in the 90s. So to all WSU fans – enjoy the success and you have a right to be excited. But don't get to cocky. All valley teams deserve your respect – and that is a good thing.

Welcome aboard Maggie and great first post. I admit that I get caught up in the WSU/CU stuff a little too much and at times it does become a little much but it is still just a message board and everyone needs to keep that in mind and not get to bent out of shape about it.

[C0|db|00ded]

The number of VT posters is way down. Especially SIU and MSU posters. Your take on why that is.

Historically fan participation and team success go hand in hand. You should have seen how quiet it got on here last year when the Jays had their annual meltdown game against Illinois State. That being said, the Shocker Nation is so huge that we are noisy even when we are losing.. :innocent:


T


...:cool:

[DawgieStyle]

I absolutely believe that CU ad WSU can beat Indiana this year. Kentucky is a tougher call, but with what Cu and WSU have returning, I suspect they would each play UK very closely and could win the game.

I respect your opinion, although I beleive it is bit tinted by the blue jay blue lenses and that valley banner. Yes, the valley had a banner year last year, and looks poised again to be very good. But lets not forget our place in the grand scheme of things. If you were to play KU or IU 10 times, you would lose the majority of those games. Yes, You would win a couple granted. But the fact that you would lose the majority tells me which team is better night in and night out. Luckily for us, that's why we play the games. We hope the night we play IU or KU its one of the nights we can get one of our 2-3 wins against them.

Sorry if that seems pessimisitc or in the opposite direction we all see the valley going in. But winning a couple games in the NCAA tournament doesn't make us an elite conf. yet, or teams. Fact of the matter is if any of our clubs were to compete in the Big 10 or Big 12 we wouldn't finish in the upper half of the conf. Is that hard to hear? Of course. Is it reality? you betcha. But the Silver lining is that we don't compete in the Big 10, and the tournament is a bunch of single games. So we can make some noise. But as far as knowing where we stand...don't let your heads get too big too fast.

[SiuCubFan8]

I respect your opinion, although I beleive it is bit tinted by the blue jay blue lenses and that valley banner. Yes, the valley had a banner year last year, and looks poised again to be very good. But lets not forget our place in the grand scheme of things. If you were to play KU or IU 10 times, you would lose the majority of those games. Yes, You would win a couple granted. But the fact that you would lose the majority tells me which team is better night in and night out. Luckily for us, that's why we play the games. We hope the night we play IU or KU its one of the nights we can get one of our 2-3 wins against them.

Sorry if that seems pessimisitc or in the opposite direction we all see the valley going in. But winning a couple games in the NCAA tournament doesn't make us an elite conf. yet, or teams. Fact of the matter is if any of our clubs were to compete in the Big 10 or Big 12 we wouldn't finish in the upper half of the conf. Is that hard to hear? Of course. Is it reality? you betcha. But the Silver lining is that we don't compete in the Big 10, and the tournament is a bunch of single games. So we can make some noise. But as far as knowing where we stand...don't let your heads get too big too fast.

I beleive there are 3 teams that could finish in the top half of the Big 11. Is that reality, you betcha!

[WSUfan]

DS: I'd love to see CU, SIU & WSU play in this year's Big 10. All three would finish in the top 6 or 7 (out of 13? 14?) IMHO.

[C0|db|00ded]

This thread like many others is a clear illustration of the pain that many Creightonians go through while trying to accept the fact that Wichita State could be the next "big thing" in the Valley. If you read through the entire thread it begins with hopeful predictions and passive-aggressive jabs then climaxes after the poll comes out with WSU ahead of CU. Then we hear the cries, moans, and subsequent grasping for straws when Syracuse is brought up for the 99th time.. Many of us can't even have fun anymore because the little-man pathology among the Creighton loyalists has gone way beyond chronic. Good-natured ribbing turns into a complete meltdown every time with the grand finale being the Kleenex queen Blueblood threatening to run off and take his toys with him. Boo-frickin-hoo. :no: :helpsmilie: :ermm: :sleeping:

We need more men on this forum and less Creightonians. :banana:


T


...:cool:

[DawgieStyle]

I beleive there are 3 teams that could finish in the top half of the Big 11. Is that reality, you betcha!

dude, that is not an objective response at all. Seriously. I'm not saying we'd be cellar dwellers, but come on no valley team is gonna finish ahead of

Texas, Kansas, Texas Tech, Ok state. and not to mention emerging Texas A&M. If you think a valley team can go in and finish above any of those teams in the standing, you're nuts.

[C0|db|00ded]

I have been reading this forum for quite sometime and find it, generally, very informative. I don't live in the Midwest anymore so it is a good way for me to keep up on the conference. However, this ongoing war between CU and WSU fans is getting quite annoying. Especially in the context of Katz top 50 list.
Every team in the MVC still has a lot to prove to the national media. Frankly, I was worried before the tournament last year about the performance of UNI, SIU, WSU and Bradley. I was pleasantly surprised – although I must admit I expected SIU to give West Virginia more of a game. This coming season don’t think for a moment the BCS schools are not paying attention to the MVC and to a lesser extent teams from the CAA. They are. In there minds the MVC is stealing their bids. No BCS teams is going to overlook a MVC opponent. The non conference play is going to be more difficult than ever before. BCS teams don't want to lose to the Valley and non-BSC teams want to say they beat a MVC squad.
WSU fans, CU fans and indeed fans of every team in the MVC should understand that strong teams from top to bottom is good for MVC as a whole. That way if CU actually beats SIU on its home floor – it will actually mean something.
As for Katz – he is lazy. Katz is paying lip service to the MVC because he feels he has to at this point. Why? Because the MVC didn't fall flat in the tournament. He does not respect the league. Keep that in mind. His rankings of CU and WSU respectively is a wash and anyone that says otherwise is clutching at straws to promote their own team. His ranking of SIU is low but at least they are ranked in the top 50 (see MSU's absence). Still all in all that is 3 valley teams in the top 50. Not too bad. Now back it up.
In the interests of full disclosure, I am a WSU fan and have been from the late 70s and 80s. So I do remember the good teams and the teams in the 90s. So to all WSU fans – enjoy the success and you have a right to be excited. But don't get to cocky. All valley teams deserve your respect – and that is a good thing.

Post more often Maggie, this forum needs more Shocker posters! :innocent:


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[blueblood]

Can a few of us single him out and call him a few names so we get him delted?

[MSNSaluki]

Historically fan participation and team success go hand in hand. You should have seen how quiet it got on here last year when the Jays had their annual meltdown game against Illinois State. That being said, the Shocker Nation is so huge that we are noisy even when we are losing.. :innocent:


T


...:cool:


Under your historical scenario, there should be more SIU fans on this board now than Creighton or Wichita Fans (using the last five years as a barometer, of course). You may have run a bunch of SIU fans off with your continued critiques of our offensive style.:yes: :original:

That being said ... you are correct. Wichita folks are fired up so you have a lot of posters. Creighton folks are fired up so they have a lot of posters. In the words of someone on this board, it's a great day to be in the Valley!:valley:

[SiuCubFan8]

dude, that is not an objective response at all. Seriously. I'm not saying we'd be cellar dwellers, but come on no valley team is gonna finish ahead of

Texas, Kansas, Texas Tech, Ok state. and not to mention emerging Texas A&M. If you think a valley team can go in and finish above any of those teams in the standing, you're nuts.

I was talking about the Big Ten (i put Big 11 as a joke).
Big Ten
NW- not good
Purdue- will be better in years to come with recruits
Pen St.- bad
IU- beatable
Iowa- beatable
UofI- rebuilding year but will still be tough
Mich St.- always tough
OSU- could be a huge year for them and then the infractions will come down IMO
Mich- they are always up and down up and down.
Minn- won't be good next year

I think WSU/SIU/CU could hold there own next year with those teams.

BTW- What is with the Dude, are you Dusty Baker?

[DawgieStyle]

I was talking about the Big Ten (i put Big 11 as a joke).
Big Ten
NW- not good
Purdue- will be better in years to come with recruits
Pen St.- bad
IU- beatable
Iowa- beatable
UofI- rebuilding year but will still be tough
Mich St.- always tough
OSU- could be a huge year for them and then the infractions will come down IMO
Mich- they are always up and down up and down.
Minn- won't be good next year

I think WSU/SIU/CU could hold there own next year with those teams.

BTW- What is with the Dude, are you Dusty Baker?

Nah, didn't you see "dude where's my car" Dude, sweet, dude, sweet....what's mine say...Dude, Now what's mine say, Sweet......

in all seriousness, yes those teams are beatable. But I'm not talking about single games. I'm talking the rigors of a full Big 10 or Big 12 season. Facing each team more than once, and that means the elite teams, not only the Northwesterns of the bunch. As much I'm excited for the success the vally has had, I simply can't see CU or WSU or SIU going into the big 10 and finishing any higher than 5th or 6th based on a full conf. season. No way we finish ahead of OSU, UofI, IU, Mich st. and most likelly Michigan. No way that happens.

[SiuCubFan8]

Nah, didn't you see "dude where's my car" Dude, sweet, dude, sweet....what's mine say...Dude, Now what's mine say, Sweet......

in all seriousness, yes those teams are beatable. But I'm not talking about single games. I'm talking the rigors of a full Big 10 or Big 12 season. Facing each team more than once, and that means the elite teams, not only the Northwesterns of the bunch. As much I'm excited for the success the vally has had, I simply can't see CU or WSU or SIU going into the big 10 and finishing any higher than 5th or 6th based on a full conf. season. No way we finish ahead of OSU, UofI, IU, Mich st. and most likelly Michigan. No way that happens.

Remeber they would have to face us more than onece. I am not being a valley homer on this one. I have thought the past few years the best MVC team could compete very well in the Big Ten and this year I believe we have 3teams that could compete.

[DawgieStyle]

Remeber they would have to face us more than onece. I am not being a valley homer on this one. I have thought the past few years the best MVC team could compete very well in the Big Ten and this year I believe we have 3teams that could compete.

to each their own. I will agree to disagree on this, as I don't think I will be changing your mind any time soon.

[bears1]

I don't think you have taken into consideration that those teams would have to play us on our home floors as well. Give me a break with the Big 12 BS. If Im not mistaken, the Valley actually rated better than the Big 12 almost the whole year last season and I think they barely finished ahead of the MVC. I absolutley believe that our top 4 or 5 would be fine in that conference.

[DawgieStyle]

I don't think you have taken into consideration that those teams would have to play us on our home floors as well. Give me a break with the Big 12 BS. If Im not mistaken, the Valley actually rated better than the Big 12 almost the whole year last season and I think they barely finished ahead of the MVC. I absolutley believe that our top 4 or 5 would be fine in that conference.

your opinion has been noted....

[Maggie]

I don't think you have taken into consideration that those teams would have to play us on our home floors as well. Give me a break with the Big 12 BS. If Im not mistaken, the Valley actually rated better than the Big 12 almost the whole year last season and I think they barely finished ahead of the MVC. I absolutley believe that our top 4 or 5 would be fine in that conference.

True enough. Last year several valley teams would have been very competitive in that league. Now I am no fan of the Big 12 but it was down last year. They will not stay down. Furthermore, you cannot really compare the Big 12 to the MVC simply because, even though the gap has narrowed, the Big 12 attracts better recruits.
I don't really care about the Big 12 or how Valley teams would fare in that conference. The MVC needs to focus on beating the "name" teams it can schedule thereby elevating itself to a higher level. That will take time.

[Aargh]

Were last year's games against the B10 and B12 just flukes?

WSU lost to Illinois by 1 point. That game looked like a pretty good matchup. UNI beat Iowa. DU took Iowa to the wire in Ames. Indiana State beat Indiana. The only one-sided game between MVC and B10 teams was WSU losing to MichSt.

BU outplayed B12 tourney champ and regular-season co-champ KU for 40 minutes straight.

Valley didn't do bad against the SEC. UNI beat the West div champ and WSU beat the East div champ. Valley didn't do bad against the BEast either.

UNI finished T5 in the Valley. UNI beat Iowa (T2 in the B10) and LSU (SEC West champion). Indiana State (T9 in MVC) beat Indiana (T4 in the B10).

Mid-tier and lower-tier MVC teams are starting to beat upper-tier B10 teams.

This MVC isn't the MVC of 5 years ago. The expectation of MVC teams against other leagues should have changed in the last couple of years. The teams have proven it on the court against the "name" teams in the NCAA.

[DawgieStyle]

Were last year's games against the B10 and B12 just flukes?

WSU lost to Illinois by 1 point. That game looked like a pretty good matchup. UNI beat Iowa. DU took Iowa to the wire in Ames. Indiana State beat Indiana. The only one-sided game between MVC and B10 teams was WSU losing to MichSt.

BU outplayed B12 tourney champ and regular-season co-champ KU for 40 minutes straight.

Valley didn't do bad against the SEC. UNI beat the West div champ and WSU beat the East div champ. Valley didn't do bad against the BEast either.

UNI finished T5 in the Valley. UNI beat Iowa (T2 in the B10) and LSU (SEC West champion). Indiana State (T9 in MVC) beat Indiana (T4 in the B10).

Mid-tier and lower-tier MVC teams are starting to beat upper-tier B10 teams.

This MVC isn't the MVC of 5 years ago. The expectation of MVC teams against other leagues should have changed in the last couple of years. The teams have proven it on the court against the "name" teams in the NCAA.


you keep on thinking that. You know in my mind how I determine if a valley team could compete in the Big 10 or Big 12?

I ask my self if I had some money riding on it, and went to Vegas, who do I put my money on? If I'm being totally objective, and beleive me, if it involves money, I am. I know who I'm going with...how about you?

[blueblood]

Facts are hard to dispute. Aargh shows facts. All we have to go on are the most recent head to head results. The MVC has held its own. You can value perceptions and what the media tells you to believe but facts are facts.

[Bird]

You forgot a CU team that was missing 4 or 5 players destroying Nebraska last year as well.

[DawgieStyle]

You forgot a CU team that was missing 4 or 5 players destroying Nebraska last year as well.

we're not talking Nebraska...We're talking the top half of the Big 12....

[rjl]

Tim Welsh himself last year said that WSU would have finished in the top half of the Big East easily, so I don't think it's soo far fetched to say that the Valley could have three teams in the top half of the Big 10 or Big 12.

In the Big 12, Texas is ready for a down year after losing most of its team. OU? New head coach and fleeing recruits. KU? Loads of talent, but they better learn how to play together. aTm is good, but not any better than CU, WSU, or SIU.

There's really only one or two teams in the whole Big 12 I'd see finishing ahead of the top 3 Valley teams. Last year was supposed to be the big year for that conference, and look how well it went.

[UE-BBALL#1]

Were last year's games against the B10 and B12 just flukes?

WSU lost to Illinois by 1 point. That game looked like a pretty good matchup. UNI beat Iowa. DU took Iowa to the wire in Ames. Indiana State beat Indiana. The only one-sided game between MVC and B10 teams was WSU losing to MichSt.

No love for the mighty Aces and their thrashing of Purdue last year?!? Thats about all we had to hang out hats on.:grin: :aces:

[LincolnJay]

we're not talking Nebraska...We're talking the top half of the Big 12....

Well, actually, Nebraska finished 6th in the Big XII last year.

[DawgieStyle]

you guys are all just throwing out single game instances. Which fairly, is all we have to judge by. But single games against those teams is WAYYYYY different than competeing for a conf. championship with those same teams night in and night out. I think everyone here understands and agrees with that. We know that an in conf. game with Drake can be tougher some times than an out of conf. game with Depaul. How I don't know, but it always happens like that. You have to take the single game mentality out of all this, and actually think about a 20 game schedule in the Big 12 or Big 10. It would be hell. I'm not saying we would lose every game, or finish last. But it is certainly WAY more difficult than many of you are giving credit for. And I still stand by my original statement that no one in the valley could finish in the upper half of the Big 10 or Big 12.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

you guys are all just throwing out single game instances. Which fairly, is all we have to judge by. But single games against those teams is WAYYYYY different than competeing for a conf. championship with those same teams night in and night out. I think everyone here understands and agrees with that. We know that an in conf. game with Drake can be tougher some times than an out of conf. game with Depaul. How I don't know, but it always happens like that. You have to take the single game mentality out of all this, and actually think about a 20 game schedule in the Big 12 or Big 10. It would be hell. I'm not saying we would lose every game, or finish last. But it is certainly WAY more difficult than many of you are giving credit for. And I still stand by my original statement that no one in the valley could finish in the upper half of the Big 10 or Big 12.

Your opinion has been noted...

[DawgieStyle]

don't misunderstand me either. I want the valley to get to the level where a team from our conf. could go into the Big 10 or Big 12 and compete at the highest level. That would be awesome, and you're right, that should be our goal. I differ though, because I don't think we've really come close to reaching that goal yet. But I hope we do. I'm glad the valley has improved, I really am. I just don't think its improved as much as many of you think or as much as the hype machines would like us to believe.

[brokeback shocker]

The caterwauling by CU fans over Katz preseason poll is simple evidence of your bias . . .against WSU.

WSU is a sweet 16 team that returns 4 of 5 starters and 8 of the top 10 with a great recruit (Makel) and a top transfer in Phillip what's-his-name.

Yes, you can make a case why CU should be ranked ahead of WSU.

But given what WSU has coming back from a SWEET 16 run vs. what Creighton has from a team that made a short run in the NIT, how can you all protest so much?

It is not unreasonable to pick WSU as preeason champs.

Nor is it unreasonable to pick CU or SIU.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

I ask my self if I had some money riding on it, and went to Vegas, who do I put my money on? If I'm being totally objective, and beleive me, if it involves money, I am. I know who I'm going with...how about you?

Dude... instead of going to Vegas and giving your money away, please just send it to me. You'll save yourself a lot of agony.

Betting lines come in two flavors: (a) point spreads and (2) money lines. The less-publicized team (read: Valley school) is almost always going to be undervalued, because tourists and casual bettors put way too much money on the favorite.

I absolutely guarantee you that in Valley vs. BCS games this season, the Valley will win more games as an underdog than they'll lose as a favorite. A consistent wager on the Valley will not lose.

[DawgieStyle]

Dude... instead of going to Vegas and giving your money away, please just send it to me. You'll save yourself a lot of agony.

Betting lines come in two flavors: (a) point spreads and (2) money lines. The less-publicized team (read: Valley school) is almost always going to be undervalued, because tourists and casual bettors put way too much money on the favorite.

I absolutely guarantee you that in Valley vs. BCS games this season, the Valley will win more games as an underdog than they'll lose as a favorite. A consistent wager on the Valley will not lose.

u missed the point...

[DoubleJayAlum]

The caterwauling by CU fans over Katz preseason poll is simple evidence of your bias . . .against WSU.

WSU is a sweet 16 team that returns 4 of 5 starters and 8 of the top 10 with a great recruit (Makel) and a top transfer in Phillip what's-his-name.

Yes, you can make a case why CU should be ranked ahead of WSU.

But given what WSU has coming back from a SWEET 16 run vs. what Creighton has from a team that made a short run in the NIT, how can you all protest so much?

It is not unreasonable to pick WSU as preeason champs.

Nor is it unreasonable to pick CU or SIU.

Dawgie Style is not a CU supporter; he's an SIU alum (hint: look at the logo next to his screen name). Other than him, I haven't seen any CU supporters in this thread complaing about where CU is ranked vis-a-vis WSU in the poll. I for one am just happy to see two MVC schools in a pre-season top 25 as I stated earlier in this thread

[MikeKennedyRulz]

The caterwauling by CU fans over Katz preseason poll is simple evidence of your bias . . .against WSU.

WSU is a sweet 16 team that returns 4 of 5 starters and 8 of the top 10 with a great recruit (Makel) and a top transfer in Phillip what's-his-name.

Yes, you can make a case why CU should be ranked ahead of WSU.

But given what WSU has coming back from a SWEET 16 run vs. what Creighton has from a team that made a short run in the NIT, how can you all protest so much?

It is not unreasonable to pick WSU as preeason champs.

Nor is it unreasonable to pick CU or SIU.

Phillip Thomasson. C'mon man, you should know that. :grin: :doh:

[DawgieStyle]

36this should cheer everyone up....everyones favorite FSU fan...Jenn Sterger.

[hammyshock]

In all seriousness, it is so great to have a rival. I always hated MSU just because our basketball games with them.... actually all of our athletic happenings with them, were knock down drag out fights back in the day. They were thugs and in the Smithson era we were thugs.

I have always wondered what it would be like to have a true rival. Someone you truly can't wait to hate. Someone whose mascot is in the first issue of the students newspaper as "mascots you need to learn to hate" (which both Creighton and MSU made that list this year). We finally have that in Creighton.

Creighton, one of the most respected private institutions in the midwest. A member of the Jesuit brotherhood of schools. A school who, academically, I respect. A school with a basketball program had a string of success we so longed for. A school that I love to hate. A school that, unlike MSU, beats us in basketball and makes us want to get up, dust off, and get back in the ring with them.

Here's to rivalries! :chair: :bash: :clap:

Go Shocks!

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

I ask my self if I had some money riding on it, and went to Vegas, who do I put my money on? If I'm being totally objective, and beleive me, if it involves money, I am. I know who I'm going with...how about you?

Dude... instead of going to Vegas and giving your money away, please just send it to me. You'll save yourself a lot of agony.

Betting lines come in two flavors: (a) point spreads and (2) money lines. The less-publicized team (read: Valley school) is almost always going to be undervalued, because tourists and casual bettors put way too much money on the favorite.

I absolutely guarantee you that in Valley vs. BCS games this season, the Valley will win more games as an underdog than they'll lose as a favorite. A consistent wager on the Valley will not lose.

u missed the point...

I discussed "putting my money where my mouth is", in terms of more than just one game. Which point did I miss?

According to Ken Pomeroy's Power Ratings (http://www.kenpom.com/rate.php), Valley teams would have been good enough to finish 4th, 5th, and 6th in the Big Televen last year. Those teams would have been good enough to finish 3rd, 4th, and 5th in the Big XII.

By Mike Greenfield's Team Rankings (http://teamrankings.com/ncb/), the Big Televen fares a little better -- Valley teams would have finished 4th, 6th, and 8th (with 8 teams in the national top 34). But it's the same story for the Big XII -- Valley teams would have finished 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Jeff Sagarin's power ratings (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkt0506.htm) echo the now-familiar tone. Valley teams take 4th, 5th, and 6th in the Big Televen, and 3rd, 4th, and 5th in the Big XII.

Sure, numbers can sometimes lie. But when three different systems of measurement give essentially the same results, the results are no fluke. You can either choose to believe the results, or you can choose to believe that all three systems share some underlying flaw that renders any objective comparison meaningless.

If you want to compare conference champions from the various leagues, then the Valley clearly takes a back seat. If you want to consider the quality of the leagues over the past two decades, again, there's a simple conclusion. But those weren't the points you chose to argue; you claim that "no team in the Valley" (present tense) could hope to finish "in the top half" of the Big Televen or Big XII (again, present tense). Statistical comparison says that you're wrong. What is statistical comparison missing?

[outpost]

36this should cheer everyone up....everyones favorite FSU fan...Jenn Sterger.

Thanks, but I think you could've sized her thumbnail a little larger. Posted as-is does her absolutely no justice.

[brokeback shocker]

In all seriousness, it is so great to have a rival. I always hated MSU just because our basketball games with them.... actually all of our athletic happenings with them, were knock down drag out fights back in the day. They were thugs and in the Smithson era we were thugs.

I have always wondered what it would be like to have a true rival. Someone you truly can't wait to hate. Someone whose mascot is in the first issue of the students newspaper as "mascots you need to learn to hate" (which both Creighton and MSU made that list this year). We finally have that in Creighton.

Creighton, one of the most respected private institutions in the midwest. A member of the Jesuit brotherhood of schools. A school who, academically, I respect. A school with a basketball program had a string of success we so longed for. A school that I love to hate. A school that, unlike MSU, beats us in basketball and makes us want to get up, dust off, and get back in the ring with them.

Here's to rivalries! :chair: :bash: :clap:

Go Shocks!

Creighton is hardly one of the most respected private colleges in the midwest.

I went to a sorority party there in the 1980s and most of the folks were cast aways from St. Louis that couldn't get into St. Louis U, Marquette, Loyola, or Notre Dame of course.

I remember the women were a bit . . . large. But they did drink like fishes.

They thought my Wichita accent was "southern."

[Rasputin]

Creighton is hardly one of the most respected private colleges in the midwest.

I went to a sorority party there in the 1980s and most of the folks were cast aways from St. Louis that couldn't get into St. Louis U, Marquette, Loyola, or Notre Dame of course.

I remember the women were a bit . . . large. But they did drink like fishes.

They thought my Wichita accent was "southern."

You may want to check your facts, Creighton has been ranked the #1 private university in the Midwest by both Princeton Review and US News for quite some time.

[t7017s]

I dont see siu ranked at 42. Seems Cal has number 42 on katz sizzling 50. Wsu and creighton seem to be where everyone stated they were. However siu isnt even on the list right now. Has the list changed? Is siu going to be higher than 20? Plus he has nothern iowa at 48 i think it is with ben jacobson and crawford returning? Whats up with that ****? Obviously no research or perhaps he just got the ben jacobsens confused but crawford is gone to. Perhaps someone should take the time to quit fighting and check the links again because what im seeing is apparentlly not what others are.

[t7017s]

Nevermind. I used the link on the right side of the article instead of the one at the top of the article. The one at the top of the article is for this year and the one on the right side of the article is for last year. Im an idiot so go ahead and pile on.

[Jayman]

Creighton is hardly one of the most respected private colleges in the midwest.

I went to a sorority party there in the 1980s and most of the folks were cast aways from St. Louis that couldn't get into St. Louis U, Marquette, Loyola, or Notre Dame of course.

I remember the women were a bit . . . large. But they did drink like fishes.

They thought my Wichita accent was "southern."

With the exception of Notre Dame, Creighton has a higher win/hit ratio against those schools. For example, Creighton got 70% of the students who were accepted to both SLU and Creighton.

[C0|db|00ded]

You may want to check your facts, Creighton has been ranked the #1 private university in the Midwest by both Princeton Review and US News for quite some time.

In Podunk "masters" universities yes..


T


...:cool:

[Rasputin]

In Podunk "masters" universities yes..


T


...:cool:

:rolleyes:

[SubGod22]

About SIUs low ranking. Even Katz says it could be too low.

[MSNSaluki]

9 freakin' pages on where Andy Katz ranks Valley teams in mid-August. Amazing.
I can't wait to see the carnage the first time an AP or USA Today poll is released.

[iSASO]

For all of our sakes, I hope CU is ranked higher than everyone. It's just easier that way.

[BlueDude]

FYI:

#20. Marquette
#18. Gonzag
#16. Memphis

[DawgieStyle]

I discussed "putting my money where my mouth is", in terms of more than just one game. Which point did I miss?

According to Ken Pomeroy's Power Ratings (http://www.kenpom.com/rate.php), Valley teams would have been good enough to finish 4th, 5th, and 6th in the Big Televen last year. Those teams would have been good enough to finish 3rd, 4th, and 5th in the Big XII.

By Mike Greenfield's Team Rankings (http://teamrankings.com/ncb/), the Big Televen fares a little better -- Valley teams would have finished 4th, 6th, and 8th (with 8 teams in the national top 34). But it's the same story for the Big XII -- Valley teams would have finished 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Jeff Sagarin's power ratings (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/bkt0506.htm) echo the now-familiar tone. Valley teams take 4th, 5th, and 6th in the Big Televen, and 3rd, 4th, and 5th in the Big XII.

Sure, numbers can sometimes lie. But when three different systems of measurement give essentially the same results, the results are no fluke. You can either choose to believe the results, or you can choose to believe that all three systems share some underlying flaw that renders any objective comparison meaningless.

If you want to compare conference champions from the various leagues, then the Valley clearly takes a back seat. If you want to consider the quality of the leagues over the past two decades, again, there's a simple conclusion. But those weren't the points you chose to argue; you claim that "no team in the Valley" (present tense) could hope to finish "in the top half" of the Big Televen or Big XII (again, present tense). Statistical comparison says that you're wrong. What is statistical comparison missing?

you can save your statisitics in this case. No statistic is going to make me beleive a valley squad could finish in the top 5-6 of the Big 10 or Big 12. It's more common sense than anything. Your "statisitics" don't account for the "level" of competition either. The over all level of competition and quality of ALL! teams is much greater in the Big 10 and the Big 12. No one can deny that. The bottom feeders in the Big 12 and Big 10 are way better than the bottom feeders in the Valley. Your "stats" don't account for that. So the conference season in the Big 10 and Big 12 is way more brutal than it is in the MVC. I'm sorry, that's a fact. Do I think Valley schools stand a chance in single game situations? ABSOLUTLEY! but those are single game situations. Place us in those conferences for an entire season, and it's a much different result. The best example I can give you is that you are going to face a team of Missouri States or No. Iowas quality or better every single night in the Big 10 or Big 12. Are SIU and CU, and WSU better than Missouri state and No. Iowa. Of course they are. But try playing teams of that quality every night. In the MVC im sorry, you get breaks, like Drake or Indiana state. It's much tougher and more dangerous road than any of you are willing to admit.

[bears1]

Thank you Digger for your words of wisdom! Now I think it's about time you head back to the Big 12 board to re-fuel the tank with more BCS kool-aide. They would love you over at tigerboard and your line of B.S will play alot better over there...so head on over and have a good show.

[SiuCubFan8]

About SIUs low ranking. Even Katz says it could be too low.

That is what is weird. He admits it is most likley to low.:doh:
I think he was to afraid to have 3 MVC teams ranked that high, maybe?

[DawgieStyle]

Thank you Digger for your words of wisdom! Now I think it's about time you head back to the Big 12 board to re-fuel the tank with more BCS kool-aide. They would love you over at tigerboard and your line of B.S will play alot better over there...so head on over and have a good show.

im not a big 12 fan, im a valley fan. But man, I'm also a realist. So many of the people on this board are blinded by the hype machine in full effect after the NCAA tournament this year its sickening. the valley has progressed and improved, I agree. Just not near as much as some of you think. You forget the quality of basketball in the larger conf. was down due to NBA migration, we didn't get as good as you think, as much as they got worse, and secondly that changes this year again, as the new age limit in the NBA takes effect. Anyone not shocked by how good Ohio state just got?????????????? Yah that's what I thought. Wake up people!!!!! We're better, yes, but we're not as good as we think.

[SiuCubFan8]

im not a big 12 fan, im a valley fan. But man, I'm also a realist. So many of the people on this board are blinded by the hype machine in full effect after the NCAA tournament this year its sickening. the valley has progressed and improved, I agree. Just not near as much as some of you