Turgeon Talks schedule

[Myopicraiderfan]

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/sports/colleges/wichita_state_university/15338110.htm

Here are some pieces of the article.


"He said Tuesday that it is likely WSU will start a home-and-home series with a road game against a "top 125 opponent with a good name" on Dec. 9. That will give the Shockers a stretch of four straight Saturdays on the road -- at George Mason (Nov. 18), at LSU (Nov. 25) and at Syracuse (Dec. 2)."

"WSU would like to schedule one more home date for this season, most likely a guarantee game. Seems a modest wish, but Turgeon is not sure it will happen."

""I keep telling (athletic director) Mr. (Jim) Schaus that I don't think we'll get a guarantee game and he denies it," Turgeon said."

[MikeKennedyRulz]

This disappoints me. I want a good home game THIS year and at this point there are none. Yes, the BB opponent will likely be a decent home game but this does not make me happy:

Rockhurst
Chicago St.
UMKC
Kennedaw St.
Maryland Eastern-Shore


:no:

[blueblood]

This disappoints me. I want a good home game THIS year and at this point there are none. Yes, the BB opponent will likely be a decent home game but this does not make me happy:

Rockhurst
Chicago St.
UMKC
Kennedaw St.
Maryland Eastern-Shore


:no:

As DaShox said, i'm not trying to flame here and this has nothing at all to do with CU's schedule, but isn't that some of us have been saying about your scheduling methods all along and you guys would have none of it?

[MoValley John]

This disappoints me. I want a good home game THIS year and at this point there are none. Yes, the BB opponent will likely be a decent home game but this does not make me happy:

Rockhurst
Chicago St.
UMKC
Kennedaw St.
Maryland Eastern-Shore


:no:

I think you need to back up a little bit and look at the bigger picture. Without regard to the smack talk on this board, WSU will have plenty of big games in conference. You know that the Roundhouse will be rocking when SIU, CU and MSU come to town. But you also need to consider that Ill State promises to be much better this year, Drake may have their long-awaited breakout year, Bradley will be a good game, UNI is a little unknown, but should be very competitive.

Unlike Gonzaga in the WCC, the Valley does have great competition and you don't have to look too far on the schedule to find alot of good home games. Everyone in the conference will have more good games then they know what to do with. Enjoy the season.

[outpost]

I like this part.......

WSU would like to schedule one more home date for this season, most likely a guarantee game. Seems a modest wish, but Turgeon is not sure it will happen. He said scheduling has become such a burden that he may hand off that responsibility to his director of basketball operations, a position he wants to fill soon, and make it a year-round job.

If I was in that position, I'd be on the phone with Gary Williams.......:naughty:

[rjl]

As DaShox said, i'm not trying to flame here and this has nothing at all to do with CU's schedule, but isn't that some of us have been saying about your scheduling methods all along and you guys would have none of it?

Our scheduling has netted us LSU at home next year (a feat only 6 other teams can say in the last 6 seasons) and whoever this 'mystery' team is.

While I won't dispute the fact that this year's home schedule doesn't look too exciting, our scheduling philosophy certainly isn't to blame.

[outpost]

I agree with rjl's point here.

I don't think that you can hold up a single season and say that it's a failure for your program just because most of your quality opponents are road games. Next year promises to be better for us in terms of scheduling and attracting good non-conference opponents to Koch. And hopefully year after next (2008-09) we might see a little better balance between home and road.

Have I reminded anyone lately that I wasn't wild about making situations like what we agreed to with Syracuse a regular habit?

[Hooloovoo]

This disappoints me. I want a good home game THIS year and at this point there are none. Yes, the BB opponent will likely be a decent home game but this does not make me happy:

Rockhurst
Chicago St.
UMKC
Kennedaw St.
Maryland Eastern-Shore


:no:

I think the problem is less of getting good opponents, it is balancing out the home/road games so there is a good mix each year. I know that Altman and company have been good at making sure there is a good mix, so there won't be any really road heavy or home heavy years, at least as much as I can tell.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

As DaShox said, i'm not trying to flame here and this has nothing at all to do with CU's schedule, but isn't that some of us have been saying about your scheduling methods all along and you guys would have none of it?

No, that discussion (bagging on) was about the schedule/scheduling as a whole. I am only disappointed in the HOME non-con schedule. Also, while that discussion was going on, WSU still had 2 games to fill and it was thought that one if not both of those games would be HOME games. Reading his quotes it looks like only 1 other game will be added and it will be on the road. That is why I am disappointed.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I don't think that you can hold up a single season and say that it's a failure for your program just because most of your quality opponents are road games. Next year promises to be better for us in terms of scheduling and attracting good non-conference opponents to Koch. And hopefully year after next (2008-09) we might see a little better balance between home and road.

Honest question: other than LSU, who else is on your home schedule for next year?

(I heard a radio interview with Dana Altman yesterday and the topic of scheduling came up. He said that he felt almost compelled to bring in quality opponents to play in Omaha to reward the large season ticket holder base. This year that includes Xavier and George Mason so far, with a 12/2 date still open).

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Honest question: other than LSU, who else is on your home schedule for next year?

(I heard a radio interview with Dana Altman yesterday and the topic of scheduling came up. He said that he felt almost compelled to bring in quality opponents to play in Omaha to reward the large season ticket holder base. This year that includes Xavier and George Mason so far, with a 12/2 date still open).

Honest answer: That is 15 months away and unknown at this time.

[DoubleJayAlum]

No, that discussion (bagging on) was about the schedule/scheduling as a whole. I am only disappointed in the HOME non-con schedule. Also, while that discussion was going on, WSU still had 2 games to fill and it was thought that one if not both of those games would be HOME games. Reading his quotes it looks like only 1 other game will be added and it will be on the road. That is why I am disappointed.

Fair enough MKR but I think maybe Blueblood was referring to the comments by rjl and others that CU was scheduling other mid-majors at the same level as CU rather than playing more BCS teams in a one and done format. At least one can get such mid-major opponents to come to one's own floor. Also, some Cu and SIU posters contend that by agreeing to one and dones, it makes it less likely that you can get quality teams to come to your house and play.

[WSUbballer]

Honest question: Other than DePaul, who is gonna be on your home schedule next year?

[outpost]

Thanks for covering this for me, MKR.

Double Jay, I'm not making any promises. I merely stated an opinion when I talked about "the promise of next year" above.

If I was any good at predicting, I'd be sitting on a ton of Wal-Mart stock, at a cost basis of a nickel per share, at the moment.

[Jayball]

I think Nebraska is the only other one for sure right now.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Thanks for covering this for me, MKR.

Double Jay, I'm not making any promises. I merely stated an opinion when I talked about "the promise of next year" above.

If I was any good at predicting, I'd be sitting on a ton of Wal-Mart stock, at a cost basis of a nickel per share, at the moment.

Fair enough. I wasn't trying to be a wise azz either; I just thought that by your comment you had some inside info about other teams that were already on WSU's schedule for next year.

[LincolnJay]

CU homies next year are DePaul and Nebraska.

Roadie next year is Xavier.

No other series go beyond that so that is why they are working so hard at making sure the December 2 game is a series matchup and not a guarantee game. Getting AWFULLY late for that though. :fear:

Oh yeah, and the holiday tourney that CU is lining up for next year. No solid facts on which one yet but I think this will become a regular deal on everyone's schedule.

[blueblood]

The way I remember it was that no true Shocker fan was going to complain about this years home schedule. We are all lemmings following the great Turgeon and will go where ever he tells us to go. (Not a flame at Turgeon but more aimed at those that pretend to be the blind followers on here)It has been obvious your home schedule was going to be horrible for quite a while now. But we were told to mind our own business that no true Shocker fan would complain. Things like "If its so bad then why is it sold out?" I am not flaming, just pointing out that some Shocker fans get SO caught up in arguing and being right that the obvious slips right on by. The point is the Shockers home nonconf. schedule is horrible. If I was a booster being asked to ante up more money it would piss me off a bit. Blame it on whomever or whatever you want but that schedule sucks. Another comment was that revenue was unlimited because TV revenue was unlimited. Like anyone would want to pick up one of those games.

[MoValley John]

The way I remember it was that no true Shocker fan was going to complain about this years home schedule. We are all lemmings following the great Turgeon and will go where ever he tells us to go. (Not a flame at Turgeon but more aimed at those that pretend to be the blind followers on here)It has been obvious your home schedule was going to be horrible for quite a while now. But we were told to mind our own business that no true Shocker fan would complain. Things like "If its so bad then why is it sold out?" I am not flaming, just pointing out that some Shocker fans get SO caught up in arguing and being right that the obvious slips right on by. The point is the Shockers home nonconf. schedule is horrible. If I was a booster being asked to ante up more money it would piss me off a bit. Blame it on whomever or whatever you want but that schedule sucks. Another comment was that revenue was unlimited because TV revenue was unlimited. Like anyone would want to pick up one of those games.

Lighten up everybody! As I stated earlier in this thread, the conference schedule will be great for all teams; well worth the money for season tix. That said, the Valley HAS improved, top to bottom, and getting any "Name" team on your home floor is going to become more difficult. But if you look at it another way, the big schools, with the exception of the Big 10/11- ACC shootout, have very weak home schedules as well. Look at most teams from the BCS conferences, they all have cupcake home games. Maybe instead of lamenting the weak non-conference home schedules, you might begin to take the mindset of the BCS conferences, and accept the fact that conference play is the important part of the season, and Valley play stacks up well against the big boys.

[rjl]

The way I remember it was that no true Shocker fan was going to complain about this years home schedule. We are all lemmings following the great Turgeon and will go where ever he tells us to go. (Not a flame at Turgeon but more aimed at those that pretend to be the blind followers on here)It has been obvious your home schedule was going to be horrible for quite a while now. But we were told to mind our own business that no true Shocker fan would complain. Things like "If its so bad then why is it sold out?" I am not flaming, just pointing out that some Shocker fans get SO caught up in arguing and being right that the obvious slips right on by. The point is the Shockers home nonconf. schedule is horrible. If I was a booster being asked to ante up more money it would piss me off a bit. Blame it on whomever or whatever you want but that schedule sucks. Another comment was that revenue was unlimited because TV revenue was unlimited. Like anyone would want to pick up one of those games.

You were never told that, and none of the posts should have ever given you that indication.

The earlier debates were about the means of getting quality opponents. PERIOD. Not about home vs. away schedules.

The fact is, we needed some good non-con opponents this season, and we had to play them on the road to get them.

That has NOTHING to do with who we are or are not scheduling at home this season. WSU travelling to Syracuse has NOTHING to do with getting quality competition at Koch arena this year. We have the same chance to get a team here now as we ever have.

While it would really further your argument if Shocker fans are contradicting themselves in this thread vs. what they said in the other, that is not the case.

[outpost]

You're right Blueblood.

It's not a flame, but personally I feel like you're being a bit condescending.

I prefer to take a patient stance with this scheduling problem. As a Shocker fan, I don't feel that I have a choice, given the current environment.

I agree with Coach Turgeon's opinion that Bracket Busters is helpful to both WSU and the MVC. I know the conference won't ever come to 100% agreement on that, but it is better 1) knowing that there could be a good quality OOC opponent on the schedule in February than 2) knowing that there won't be one at all.

The NCAA needs to step up, grow a pair, and enforce its criteria for selecting at-large teams. Last year, the committee did a great job (yes, I'm a bit MVC-biased) and rewarded schools that took risks. They need to continue to do that.

[rjl]

Fair enough MKR but I think maybe Blueblood was referring to the comments by rjl and others that CU was scheduling other mid-majors at the same level as CU rather than playing more BCS teams in a one and done format. At least one can get such mid-major opponents to come to one's own floor. Also, some Cu and SIU posters contend that by agreeing to one and dones, it makes it less likely that you can get quality teams to come to your house and play.

Well, that's just not the case.

Our scheduling has gotten us LSU next season, along with whatever "mystery" team Turgeon was talking about in this thread's initial post.

WSU's game at SU has nothing to do with who we're playing at home this year. It's not keeping us from getting any team into Koch. The exact same conditions are present now as were before the Syracuse announcement, with the exception of December 2nd being filled on our calendar.

What the Syracuse game IS doing is giving us a quality opponent in our non-con schedule, and as I've said before the schedule = home + away.

[The Mad Hatter]

Creighton fans should ask SIU how easy it is to get teams to come to your arena following a Sweet Sixteen.

Here is a link to the 2002-2003 schedule for SIU
http://siusalukis.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/archive/silu-m-baskbl-sched-2002.html

The best rpi of any OOC home game is George Mason at 89, and the best OOC road game was Charlotte at 35 (although they also went on the road to #310 SE Missouri State).

This is not to insult SIU. The fact is that scheduling in their position is hard, and the fact the WSU's schedule does not look so bad in light of this.

[blueblood]

You're right Blueblood.

It's not a flame, but personally I feel like you're being a bit condescending.

I prefer to take a patient stance with this scheduling problem. As a Shocker fan, I don't feel that I have a choice, given the current environment.

I agree with Coach Turgeon's opinion that Bracket Busters is helpful to both WSU and the MVC. I know the conference won't ever come to 100% agreement on that, but it is better 1) knowing that there could be a good quality OOC opponent on the schedule in February than 2) knowing that there won't be one at all.

The NCAA needs to step up, grow a pair, and enforce its criteria for selecting at-large teams. Last year, the committee did a great job (yes, I'm a bit MVC-biased) and rewarded schools that took risks. They need to continue to do that.


It is only meant to be condescending to posters that won't listen to common sense.

Example; DaShox went on a "join WSU and do all you can to get to the next level" 20 page ramble. I mentioned in another thread thus ticket and donation prices will have to go up each and every year since you have no more seats to fill. Cold then said "Television offers us unlimited potential for exposure and revenue and will be more greatly utilized as our national successes grow." and borntoshck added, "this does seem to be a nice 'reward' for people that got and have held onto their tickets during the dark ages."


Common sense; not with that home schedule.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

It is only meant to be condescending to posters that won't listen to common sense.

Example; DaShox went on a "join WSU and do all you can to get to the next level" 20 page ramble. I mentioned in another thread thus ticket and donation prices will have to go up each and every year since you have no more seats to fill. Cold then said "Television offers us unlimited potential for exposure and revenue and will be more greatly utilized as our national successes grow." and borntoshck added, "this does seem to be a nice 'reward' for people that got and have held onto their tickets during the dark ages."


Common sense; not with that home schedule.

From my perspective, I felt comfortable with the schedule when the initial discussion took place because I felt like Turg was planning on adding 2 more home games with decent teams, which was reported. Now, they say the Shox are only adding 1 more game and it is on the road. That is what is disappointing to me. I don't see Shox fans as being hypocritical because the initial discussion was done with the thought that the schedule would improve, and that doesn't appear to be what is going to happen.

[rjl]

It is only meant to be condescending to posters that won't listen to common sense.

Example; DaShox went on a "join WSU and do all you can to get to the next level" 20 page ramble. I mentioned in another thread thus ticket and donation prices will have to go up each and every year since you have no more seats to fill. Cold then said "Television offers us unlimited potential for exposure and revenue and will be more greatly utilized as our national successes grow." and borntoshck added, "this does seem to be a nice 'reward' for people that got and have held onto their tickets during the dark ages."


Common sense; not with that home schedule.

But the argument you are making as to why the WSU home schedule is the way it is it patently wrong, given the games we already know we'll have at Koch next year as a direct result of the scheduling philosophy you've attempted to disparage.

Furthermore, you've done nothing to solidify your contentions other than lob various additional random condescending comments, built on the assumptions you've posted earlier and ignoring the responses that have proved them false.

Here's the facts, less you miss them:

WSU's home schedule is the way it is, and is going to be the way it's going to be, individual of the single buyout game, Syracuse, that it's playing this year.

WSU's scheduling has netted them home games of LSU next season, a team that's only traveled outside of Louisiana 6 times in the last 6 seasons for it's non conference schedule , and that was for Hawaii Hilo, UConn, West Virginia, Ohio State, Utah and Arizona (5 very good teams and a Hawaiian vacation) as well as the "mystery" team alluded to in the initial post in this thread. We know this now, and next season is over a year away.

The NCAA Selection comittee looks at overall strength of schedule when selecting at large bids. Schedule = home + away games. If the teams you need to play wont play you at home, you play them away. Simple.

Syracuse is a better opponent than any Valley team has at home this year.

[RoyalShock]

blueblood, I think your memory, in terms of the specific issue you are referring to is wrong. As I recall, WSU fans refused to accept your conclusion (or even discuss it) because there were still two games left to fill. Now that it appears one of those is a likely road game and the other won't happen, it can be addressed.

Count me as one Shocker fan (and partial season-ticket holder) who is not pleased with the home schedule. However, as MoValley John pointed out, the home conference games continue to get better. Plus we have a BB game to look forward to. The disappointment of this year may be compensated next year, with one high-level team and one unknown, but reportedly "good name" team.

There, are you happy now?

[jt45]

But the argument you are making as to why the WSU home schedule is the way it is it patently wrong, given the games we already know we'll have at Koch next year as a direct result of the scheduling philosophy you've attempted to disparage.

Furthermore, you've done nothing to solidify your contentions other than lob various additional random condescending comments, built on the assumptions you've posted earlier and ignoring the responses that have proved them false.

Here's the facts, less you miss them:

WSU's home schedule is the way it is, and is going to be the way it's going to be, individual of the single buyout game, Syracuse, that it's playing this year.

WSU's scheduling has netted them LSU next season, a team that's only traveled outside of Louisiana 6 times in the last 6 seasons for it's non conference schedule , and that was for Hawaii Hilo, UConn, West Virginia, Ohio State, Utah and Arizona (5 very good teams and a Hawaiian vacation) as well as the "mystery" team alluded to in the initial post in this thread.

The NCAA Selection comittee looks at overall strength of schedule when selecting at large bids. Schedule = home + away games. If the teams you need to play wont play you at home, you play them away. Simple.

Syracuse is a better opponent than any Valley team has at home this year.


Everyone in the Valley has CU and SIU on the schedule, they are better than Syracuse in my opinion!

[rjl]

Everyone in the Valley has CU and SIU on the schedule, they are better than Syracuse in my opinion!

As this discussion has been focused on non-conference schedule, so was my comment.

[shockerfan13]

All I know is I've got Yellow/Gold (so I don't start that fight all over again) and Black in my veins. Sure I want to see high quality teams coming in to Koch being a season ticket holder. But truthfully, I would buy the tickets no matter what just to see the team play. I will yell and cheer as loud regardless cause those kids and coaches deserve the support. I believe MANY Shocker fans that have weathered the "dark ages" as I have would feel the same. I don't care ultimately what it costs me financially either. As long as I can afford it...I'll be there. With success comes a cost...and I am smart enough to realize that although this years home schedule may not be "great" as long as we continue to find success on a national level it will SLOWLY get better. That said I will continue to purchase season tickets....show up to the game regardless who we are playing and give all the support I can and have the best time I can have.

I would be willing to bet that 99.99999% of all the shocker fans not only on this board but abroad would agree with me.

Bottom line: Regardless of who we are playing at home...the games have been 10x as fun than they were in the 90's. Turgeon is doing his best to get the best teams he can on the schedule to help with an at large bid should it be needed and this year it just happens those quality games are on the road. And if it means success...then that is just fine with me.

[jt45]

As this discussion has been focused on non-conference schedule, so was my comment.
Gotcha. Then I must say you probably might be right on that one.

[MoValley John]

The NCAA Selection comittee looks at overall strength of schedule when selecting at large bids. Schedule = home + away games. If the teams you need to play wont play you at home, you play them away. Simple.

Syracuse is a better opponent than any Valley team has at home this year.

It's like nothing gets through to anybody! The conference schedule stacks up nicely for all Valley schools! With the mix of games the entire Valley conference plays in the non-conference, the Valley will once again be well represented in NCAA's.

Gonzaga needs to schedule tough road games because the WCC blows! It's like everyone forgets the fact that the Valley is a tough conference. Sure you get indignant with the slams from Billy Packer, but now that the schedule comes out, you really don't believe that the schedule is strong? Either Billy is right or every schedule in the Valley is tough and gives fans a reason to buy tix, show up for the non-conference and see soe of the best, fundamental basketball in the country.

As RJL said Schedule = home + away games. I might add Schedule = home + away games, non-conference and conference.

[shockerfan13]

It's like nothing gets through to anybody! The conference schedule stacks up nicely for all Valley schools! With the mix of games the entire Valley conference plays in the non-conference, the Valley will once again be well represented in NCAA's.

Gonzaga needs to schedule tough road games because the WCC blows! It's like everyone forgets the fact that the Valley is a tough conference. Sure you get indignant with the slams from Billy Packer, but now that the schedule comes out, you really don't believe that the schedule is strong? Either Billy is right or every schedule in the Valley is tough and gives fans a reason to buy tix, show up for the non-conference and see soe of the best, fundamental basketball in the country.

As RJL said Schedule = home + away games. I might add Schedule = home + away games, non-conference and conference.

Ah but even the committee last year said that their advice to middle of the pack BCS teams that felt slighted and left out was to schedule tougher games in the NON-CONFERENCE and not to just let your conference carry you. So while, yes, our conference is going to bring quality games you still have to get a tough Non-conference schedule to give yourself the best possible at-large resumee as you can. This year we couldn't get them to come to our house, so we are taking them on at their place.

[shockball]

Blueblood you look like a very intelligent guy with lots of savvy and common sense.

You're right, this home OOC schedule isn't shaping up to be one that would sell a lot of tickets.

[JVShocker]

The way I see it, the weaker non-conference HOME schedule means a fair number of people may donate their tickets to friends and would-be Shockers who can't buy tickets at sold-out KOCH this year. :grin:

Turgeon's first year (?) HOME schedule was composed of non-conf teams: Georgia Southern, Texas Arlington, Tulsa, Jacksonville and Western Carolina and fans came out in droves to watch.

And I still LOVE the fact that we play at Syracuse this year even though we have NO CHANCE of getting them to visit KOCH. No way in hell is Syracuse even going to travel to the STATE of Kansas to play a basketball game (meaning they would be doubtful to play KU on their floor), so this in effect mimmicks a Tourney game for the guys in terms of atmosphere. I see it as an opportunity for growth, and hope the guys have a great time and take everything they can get out of it, and ultimately that it pays handsomely at the end of the season. :clap: :banana:

[MoValley John]

Ah but even the committee last year said that their advice to middle of the pack BCS teams that felt slighted and left out was to schedule tougher games in the NON-CONFERENCE and not to just let your conference carry you. So while, yes, our conference is going to bring quality games you still have to get a tough Non-conference schedule to give yourself the best possible at-large resumee as you can. This year we couldn't get them to come to our house, so we are taking them on at their place.

But your overall non-conference schedule is great, very tough. Everyone is whining about weak, non-conference home games. So what! You have alot to be excited about and the OVERALL home package is very good. Jay fan needs to back off, Shocker fan needs to enjoy.

[shockerfan13]

But your overall non-conference schedule is great, very tough. Everyone is whining about weak, non-conference home games. So what! You have alot to be excited about and the OVERALL home package is very good. Jay fan needs to back off, Shocker fan needs to enjoy.


Oh I applogize. I mis-understood what you were trying to say. I agree.

[rjl]

It's like nothing gets through to anybody! The conference schedule stacks up nicely for all Valley schools! With the mix of games the entire Valley conference plays in the non-conference, the Valley will once again be well represented in NCAA's.

Gonzaga needs to schedule tough road games because the WCC blows! It's like everyone forgets the fact that the Valley is a tough conference. Sure you get indignant with the slams from Billy Packer, but now that the schedule comes out, you really don't believe that the schedule is strong? Either Billy is right or every schedule in the Valley is tough and gives fans a reason to buy tix, show up for the non-conference and see soe of the best, fundamental basketball in the country.

As RJL said Schedule = home + away games. I might add Schedule = home + away games, non-conference and conference.

I was treating this discussion as a strict non-con discussion, but I'll still add this:

The RPI is a mathematical formula similar to the sagarin ratings, where if team A beats team B, and team B beats team C, then team A should beat team C (depending on home vs. away and margins of victory in the exchange, however).

Even if team B loses to team C, team C's RPI is factored into team B's SoS, and team A's by extension.

Last year, the Valley RPI was so good because many teams played some very good non-con opponents, and then Valley teams played each other.

However, if Valley teams don't play quality non-con opponents, playing each other won't do anything to raise RPI.

For the Valley to have a good RPI, and WSU beating Creighton or ISU or SIU or any combination to mean anything, the Valley has to play a good non-con schedule to set that up.

[WuDrWu]

The way I remember it was that no true Shocker fan was going to complain about this years home schedule. We are all lemmings following the great Turgeon and will go where ever he tells us to go. (Not a flame at Turgeon but more aimed at those that pretend to be the blind followers on here)It has been obvious your home schedule was going to be horrible for quite a while now. But we were told to mind our own business that no true Shocker fan would complain. Things like "If its so bad then why is it sold out?" I am not flaming, just pointing out that some Shocker fans get SO caught up in arguing and being right that the obvious slips right on by. The point is the Shockers home nonconf. schedule is horrible. If I was a booster being asked to ante up more money it would piss me off a bit. Blame it on whomever or whatever you want but that schedule sucks. Another comment was that revenue was unlimited because TV revenue was unlimited. Like anyone would want to pick up one of those games.


I do not remember any Shocker fan saying that, much less all Shocker fans.

But that really is your mantra BB. Btw, we are all happy you are not a booster and WSU fans do not feel the same way you do. That is why when our programs dip (and someday they will) we will average 7-10k per game and you will go back to on campus at about 2500.

[Aargh]

To my memory this is the first time Turgeon has taken a one-and-done or a 1-1-1 series. A lot of any season's schedule has to do with games arranged the previuous year. A year when Turgeon was strictly holding out for home-and-home series.

This year's home schedule has nothing to do with buy games or with 1-1-1 series. Those were scheduled late in the overall process. It could be argued that this year's home schedule for WSU is the result of holding out for home-and-home games and seeing what happens when that doesn't materialize.

WSU's schedule is starting to look like a BCS schedule. Cupcakes at home. That's certainly not a goal or something to strive for, but that's the reality of WSU's schedule this year.

You can't play home games against teams that refuse to play on your home floor.

I nominate Cheese Johnson for Director Of Basketball Operations. WSU alum. Well-known and loved by WSU fans. Knows basketball and could probably have immediate rapport with other schools and with the internal staff and players.

[MoValley John]

I was treating this discussion as a strict non-con discussion, but I'll still add this:

The RPI is a mathematical formula similar to the sagarin ratings, where if team A beats team B, and team B beats team C, then team A should beat team C (depending on home vs. away and margins of victory in the exchange, however).

Even if team B loses to team C, team C's RPI is factored into team B's SoS, and team A's by extension.

Last year, the Valley RPI was so good because many teams played some very good non-con opponents, and then Valley teams played each other.

However, if Valley teams don't play quality non-con opponents, playing each other won't do anything to raise RPI.

For the Valley to have a good RPI, and WSU beating Creighton or ISU or SIU or any combination to mean anything, the Valley has to play a good non-con schedule to set that up.

And if you look at the entire Valley schedule, it's all there.

[rjl]

I nominate Cheese Johnson for Director Of Basketball Operations. WSU alum. Well-known and loved by WSU fans. Knows basketball and could probably have immediate rapport with other schools and with the internal staff and players.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Cheese has always been a great ambassador for WSU, and it would be a tremendous asset to have him aboard and all the things he may bring.

:wink:

[rjl]

And if you look at the entire Valley schedule, it's all there.

But so was it two years ago, when WSU had an average non-con schedule, finished 2nd in the Valley, and went to the NIT.

[cufan]

That has NOTHING to do with who we are or are not scheduling at home this season. WSU travelling to Syracuse has NOTHING to do with getting quality competition at Koch arena this year. We have the same chance to get a team here now as we ever have.

You believe that, CU, SIU and some other enlightened fans think otherwise. One thing can not be argued, however, For every one and done or 2 for 1 your schedule, you have one less guaranteed return game the next year by a quality opponent (notice I do not say BCS opponent) that you could have for the following year - making you start at square one in setting next year's schedule and reducing the liklihood of putting together a balanced schedule next year. Again, notice the use of the phrase "reducing the liklihood". Not saying it can't be done, just saying it makes it much harder and thus much less likely to happen.

[MoValley John]

You want home games vs. quality oponents? Here is the formula: Tank for a few years and they will be lining up!

[MikeKennedyRulz]

I was thinking the exact same thing.

Cheese has always been a great ambassador for WSU, and it would be a tremendous asset to have him aboard and all the things he may bring.

:wink:

Not to mention his NBA quality son. I'm right there with you guys. :wink:

[rjl]

You believe that, CU, SIU and some other enlightened fans think otherwise. One thing can not be argued, however, For every one and done or 2 for 1 your schedule, you have one less guaranteed return game the next year by a quality opponent (notice I do not say BCS opponent) that you could have for the following year - making you start at square one in setting next year's schedule and reducing the liklihood of putting together a balanced schedule next year. Again, notice the use of the phrase "reducing the liklihood". Not saying it can't be done, just saying it makes it much harder and thus much less likely to happen.

Once again, you can say that, but the facts prove otherwise.

Do you really think some quality non-conference teams were getting ready to sign a deal this late in the offseason to start a one-and-one at WSU, saw the Syracuse deal, and backed out?

Do you really think WSU took the Syracuse game in leu of a home game against an equal quality opponent?

The FACT is our scheduling philosophy has netted us one of the best current teams in college basketball, a Final 4 Team ranked in the preseason top 5 and projected to be just as great this year, coming to Koch next season.

That alone disproves any contention you've made.

How many other Valley teams have that feather in their cap? U of Washington comes the closest.

[rjl]

Not to mention his NBA quality son. I'm right there with you guys. :wink:

What? NBA quality son? I had NO idea!

:innocent:

[blueblood]

I will leave it at this because this is going to go all over the place if we let it.

No matter what happened last year, your home schedule is horrible for ANY MVC team. If you put in what WSU did last year its even worse. I am not really glad, but think there is hope for this board that some Shocker posters agree. Everybody appears to have a reason for how horrible it is. Thats where we part ways. I stick with my condition that buyout games cause this type of a home schedule. I also stick with others conditon that WSU not trying to schedule "like" teams is part of the problem. You got LSU, but thats next year. Doesn't help things now. I also stick by my thought that with the place being sold out, ticket prices and booster donations MUST continue to go up to keep up with the Jones'. IF home schedules like this continue I think thats going to be a tough sell. Even Nebraska football has had to upgrade because donations are down with the crappy home schedule they have had in recent years. Its just common sense.

[Aargh]

You want home games vs. quality oponents? Here is the formula: Tank for a few years and they will be lining up!
Truer words were never spoken.

In the '90's when WSU BB was awful there was no trouble getting home-and-homes with OSU, KSU or other teams looking for a road game they could win to get ready for conference play. When WSU started appearing they might win some of those games, the contracts were not renewed.

[outpost]

Everyone in the Valley has CU and SIU on the schedule, they are better than Syracuse in my opinion!

I would think that a lot of Valley fans would be willing to include WSU (and potentially MSU) in on that comment.

WSU gets a direct opportunity to prove whether it's better than Syracuse. And I am satisfied with that, although I will once again write that I don't want this particular scheduling practice to become a habit.

[WSUbballer]

Even Nebraska football has had to upgrade because donations are down with the crappy home schedule they have had in recent years. Its just common sense.
I think that has more to do with the product on the field than anything...

[shockball]

SASO donations will go up about 5% a year, count on it. I don't think that is a problem.

The non SASO section of the arena shrunk this year. It will happen again. I don't think that is a problem.

[rjl]

I will leave it at this because this is going to go all over the place if we let it.

No matter what happened last year, your home schedule is horrible for ANY MVC team. If you put in what WSU did last year its even worse. I am not really glad, but think there is hope for this board that some Shocker posters agree. Everybody appears to have a reason for how horrible it is. Thats where we part ways. I stick with my condition that buyout games cause this type of a home schedule. I also stick with others conditon that WSU not trying to schedule "like" teams is part of the problem. You got LSU, but thats next year. Doesn't help things now. I also stick by my thought that with the place being sold out, ticket prices and booster donations MUST continue to go up to keep up with the Jones'. IF home schedules like this continue I think thats going to be a tough sell. Even Nebraska football has had to upgrade because donations are down with the crappy home schedule they have had in recent years. Its just common sense.

Yes, this is a bad home schedule.

And you're contention that WSU's home schedule is bad for any Valley team doesn't disprove our point at all....? WSU came off a S16, it's hard to get teams at home. That's basically saying it's harder for WSU than the teams who didn't go to the S16, which is every team but Bradley.....

This is WSU's first buyout game that I can remember in recent history. To think that the Syracuse game, announced just a week or two ago, has any effect whatsoever on this season's home non-conference schedule displays a complete ignorance of the scheduling process.

WSU wasn't getting anyone to play at Wichita this season before the SU game, and they're not getting anyone to play here now. IT'S THAT PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

And once again, you are ignoring the fact that WSU getting LSU at home, even if it is next season, completely falsifies your entire argument.

It's not that difficult to understand, Blueblood, although you're spending a lot of time making it so.

[DoubleJayAlum]

But so was it two years ago, when WSU had an average non-con schedule, finished 2nd in the Valley, and went to the NIT.

No offense intended (at least this time :grin:), but most people believe WSU was left out of the dance that year because of their end of season tank job. The committee has always paid special attention to the last ten games a team played.

(In terms of fairness, the same stat hurt CU last year when they fell apart after Dotzler went down).

[DoubleJayAlum]

This is WSU's first buyout game that I can remember in recent history. To think that the Syracuse game, announced just a week or two ago, has any effect whatsoever on this season's home non-conference schedule displays a complete ignorance of the scheduling process.


Michigan State way back in the 2005-5006 season?

[rjl]

Michigan State?

That wasn't a buyout game.

It was a neutral game televised by ESPN.

But if you want to call it a buyout game, that's fine.

My argument still stands.

The fact that WSU is getting the seldom travelling LSU Tigers as well as the mystery "good name" at Koch next year disproves your "buyout games hurt scheduling" theory in it's entirety.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Michigan State way back in the 2005-5006 season?

Yep, not a buyout. Neutral site with a split amount for each team. Thanks for trying though.

[Aargh]

Blueblood wrote:
I stick with my condition that buyout games cause this type of a home schedule.
The buyout game was scheduled AFTER the inability to get decent home-and-homes was discovered.

The buy-out game was the EFFECT of holding out late in the scheduling process for home-and-homes. When there were no reasonable takers for home-and-homes this year, that became the CAUSE of the buyout game at SU.

We don't know what teams refused home-and-homes with WSU. We don't know what teams WSU refused to schedule for home-and-homes. I am strongly of the opinion that if WSU had taken teams who offered home-and-homes with WSU, the rest of Valley fans would be criticizing WSU's SoS.

[rjl]

THOUGHTS ON THIS YEAR'S HOME SCHEDULE:

I am a Shocker fan first and foremost.

I am also a season ticket holder.

I'll go on to say that I'm a season ticket holder that pays far more than the minimum amount to SASO to get the excellent seats I sit in. That's fine.

But I'm a Shocker fan first and foremost, so I want whats best for the team.

If the team needs to play top 25 teams in order to progress from where it is, and it does, it should play them. If you want to climb the ladder to national prominence, you've got to put your foot on the next rung. The "next rung" is always teams with more prominence and better rankings, not less.

But the conditions in which perennial top 25 big name teams play, we have to sweeten the deal to make it happen. I would have been unhappy if I had heard the SU game was on the table and we didn't take it, given the lack of other options we have.

Those are the type of matchups the team needs, and I'm not going to be so selfish as a fan to demand they are either played at Koch or not played at all.

99.9% of Shocker fans would agree.

Would I have liked to have them at home? Sure. I'd be an idiot if I said no. But what's good for the team comes before what's good for me as a ticket holder.

I'll enjoy watching the Shocks play top non-Valley talent on TV this season, and enjoy watching it in person next season. Meanwhile, I'll be perfectly content with the competition that the Valley schedule will bring to Koch.

I'm a fan this year, and get to watch WSU test its mettle against some of the top teams in the nation.

You all should wish the same for your teams.

This all said, there is no logical argument you could ever make that this scheduling philosophy in any way effects the teams we are playing at Koch arena this year. I'm sure it won't stop you from trying, though.

[LincolnJay]

But so was it two years ago, when WSU had an average non-con schedule, finished 2nd in the Valley, and went to the NIT.

Actually, WSU went to the NIT because they went 2-6 down the stretch. Same thing happened to CU this year with a 2nd place finish but a poor finish.

Figure it out.

[rjl]

Actually, WSU went to the NIT because they went 2-6 down the stretch. Same thing happened to CU this year with a 2nd place finish but a poor finish.

Figure it out.

Hmmm....

But UNI fell apart last year and still got in.

Why is that....? Hmmm.... who did they play?

Come on, LJ. Figure it out.

[iSASO]

If anyone here speculates that the less-than-stellar home lineup this season squelches my desire to buy season tickets again, then you're wrong. Dead wrong.
I want to go more than ever before. Scheduling doesn't alter my decision to buy and even add to my current allotment of tickets.

Granted, I'll be more fired up for the LSU game next year than the Kennesaw State game this year, but I'll enjoy them all.

I bought my tickets to see my team, not to see the opponent.

[rjl]

I bought my tickets to see my team, not to see the opponent.

EXACTLY.

[Aargh]

Late-season tank jobs.

WSU had one (last 10: 4-6) and missed the Tourney. WSU had a weak SoS and only one top-50 team in OOC play.

UNI had one (last 10: 4-6) and made the Tourney. UNI had a win over LSU.

MSU did not have one (last 10: 8-2) and missed the Tourney. MSU had a good SoS, but no OOC quality wins and only one top-50 team in OOC play.

I see a pattern here, but it's not the last 10 games establishing the pattern.

Now that the limits for exempt tourneys have been lifted, you can't count on those games for "quality" opponents. Every team in contention for an at-large will have similar opponents and the exempt tourneys will become a wash for SoS, quality wins, quality opponents, etc.

[outpost]

Uh, don't forget to add the indirect benefits of playing a Syracuse or LSU.

LSU plays Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc in SEC play........among their non-conference opponents, they include Texas, Texas A&M, Washington, and Connecticut.

Syracuse is.....well........no expanation for them.......but they do have the Big East schedule.

[The Mad Hatter]

Uh, don't forget to add the indirect benefits of playing a Syracuse or LSU.

LSU plays Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, etc in SEC play........among their non-conference opponents, they include Texas, Texas A&M, Washington, and Connecticut.

Syracuse is.....well........no expanation for them.......but they do have the Big East schedule.

Syracuse is a media darling, so the media is eager to categorize every team Syracuse plays as being a quality team (win or lose) because it boosts the status of Syracuse.

[jt45]

Hmmm....

But UNI fell apart last year and still got in.

Why is that....? Hmmm.... who did they play?

Come on, LJ. Figure it out.
It wasn't just who they played, its who they played and BEAT!

[TNMSUFAN]

UNI also beat Iowa and had an RPI in the 20's which made it near impossible to leave them out. If they had lost all three to Iowa, Iowa St. and LSU I'm not sure they get in.

[case8930]

As far as scheduling philosophy's go or who you decide to schedule, to each their own. But I will say that WSU had better beat either Syracuse or LSU because if they lose both games they better win the Valley regular season or tourney for a chance to get into the tournament.

[SB Shock]

As far as scheduling philosophy's go or who you decide to schedule, to each their own. But I will say that WSU had better beat either Syracuse or LSU because if they lose both games they better win the Valley regular season or tourney for a chance to get into the tournament.

Sherlock, You could use the same rationale for any team in the league. Just make the appropriate substitution.

[RoyalShock]

As far as scheduling philosophy's go or who you decide to schedule, to each their own. But I will say that WSU had better beat either Syracuse or LSU because if they lose both games they better win the Valley regular season or tourney for a chance to get into the tournament.

We didn't beat Illinois or Mich St. last year and got a 7-seed as an at-large.

If we beat GMU on the road, New Mexico and/or KSU/USC, not lose to any of the cupcakes or lose more than 6 league games, I think we'll be just fine.

[case8930]

We didn't beat Illinois or Mich St. last year and got a 7-seed as an at-large.

If we beat GMU on the road, New Mexico and/or KSU/USC, not lose to any of the cupcakes or lose more than 6 league games, I think we'll be just fine.


I'll give you that beating GMU on the road, New Mexico and/or KSU/USC, not lose to any of the cupcakes or lose more than 6 league games would probably be enough; I'm just saying that the committee might come down a little harder on WSU because of their other games. Heck if Northern Iowa hadn't beaten LSU last year I doubt they would have made the dance and they would have had a similar resume as you're proposing above. Just my .02.

[WuDrWu]

As far as scheduling philosophy's go or who you decide to schedule, to each their own. But I will say that WSU had better beat either Syracuse or LSU because if they lose both games they better win the Valley regular season or tourney for a chance to get into the tournament.


Don't worry.