Louisville's New Arena

[Bird]

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) -- The University of Louisville will trade in historic but outdated Freedom Hall for a state-of-the-art downtown facility as the primary tenant of a 22,000-seat arena that will be draped in black and red when it opens in 2010.

The school's board of trustees and athletic association's board of directors approved Tuesday the outline of a deal between the school and the Louisville Arena Authority over the much debated $381 million project....

As part of the deal, Louisville will hold the rights to 72 luxury suites and have priority scheduling options when the arena opens. Jurich said the crowded calendar at Freedom Hall -- where the men's and women's basketball teams currently play at the state fairgrounds -- was a major reason why the program is heading downtown.

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/news;_ylt=AntN81VjHD9Hah965IPOLkjevbYF?slug=ap-louisville-arena&prov=ap&type=lgns

Add Louisville to the number of top notch teams that choose to rent their arena.

[rjl]

Add Louisville to the number of top notch teams that choose to rent their arena.

Who are the others?

[BradleyBrave]

Who are the others?

Bradley and Creighton, just to name a few.

:braves:

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Add Louisville to the number of top notch teams that choose to rent their arena.
Well since my first attempt to post here was obviously against some sort of board rule, I will try again. I think Louisville and any team that rents their arena is doing themselves a dis-service financially and is missing out on a revenue source.

[DUBulldog]

I think several of the Big East schools play in rented arenas. If I had to guess, I'd guess that most of the private schools in the country play in rented arenas, unless they're playing in very small (less than 3000-4000 seat) gyms on campus.

[Bird]

Off the top of my head, Kentucky, Marquette, UNLV, and Georgetown. Not bad programs.

[blueblood]

Dashox in the WSU has taken it to the next level and others should step it up, "Yes, I think SIU is failing because they don't have a new arena. Right now, you don't see that but it will eventually catch up to you. Just like worn down Levitt caught up with WSU.

Tulsa went through coaches and it eventually caught up with them. Build your barn and pay Lowry what he's worth. Two dances and you are paying Lowry how much? If you want to take the next step you have to pony up.
__________________


Do Kentucky, Louisville, and Georgetown need to step it up to catch WSU?

[rjl]

Dashox in the WSU has taken it to the next level and others should step it up, "Yes, I think SIU is failing because they don't have a new arena. Right now, you don't see that but it will eventually catch up to you. Just like worn down Levitt caught up with WSU.

Tulsa went through coaches and it eventually caught up with them. Build your barn and pay Lowry what he's worth. Two dances and you are paying Lowry how much? If you want to take the next step you have to pony up.
__________________


Do Kentucky, Louisville, and Georgetown need to step it up to catch WSU?

Does this make sense to anyone?

[blueblood]

For the 10 year olds out there. DaShox and the major part of all Shocker posters feel EVERYONE needs their own arena to 'get to the next level'. WSU is 'at the next level' because it owns its own arena. The before mentioned programs do not own their own arenas and thus they are not on par yet with mighty WSU. If we need to do this again for any 5 yera olds reading let me know.

[rjl]

For the 10 year olds out there. DaShox and the major part of all Shocker posters feel EVERYONE needs their own arena to 'get to the next level'. WSU is 'at the next level' because it owns its own arena. The before mentioned programs do not own their own arenas and thus they are not on par yet with mighty WSU. If we need to do this again for any 5 yera olds reading let me know.

Reading comprehension score: 0

He said to get to the next level they need to have a nice arena and not a dump.

Not that I'm calling SIU's arena a dump, but that was the implication.

[blueblood]

DaShox, "Build your barn"

[MoValley John]

OF all of the dumb arguements on Valleytalk, renting vs. owning a basketball arena has to rank right up near the top. There are too many factors that determine which option is best, and to berate a school for renting is just stupid and really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find some dirt.

Does Creighton get all of the concession money? No.
Does Creighton have to pay rent? Yes.
Does Creighton control other events that come into the arena? No.
Is the Facility off-campus? Yes.

But to really get an accurate assesment of the situation, you need to look further.

Was Creighton given an option to purchase the Civic and have their own arena? Yes, but at the time, the Civic was sold out for Bluejay games and revenue essentially capped. Renting the Qwest offered several more thousand people to attend Bluejay games.

How does Creighton overcome the loss in concession revenue? Simple, having 8,000 more people at a game negates any loss in concessions and furthermore, Creighton does have their own concessions inside the Qwest Center, where they offer team apparel and other "gear". Those are big ticket items.

How can you justify upto $20,000 per game for rent? At even $10 per ticket (Bluejay tix are much more), it only takes 2,000 tickets to pay the rent. Capacity at the Civic was around 9,000, The Qwest was 15,500. Creighton has by far exceeded the 2,000 fan requirement to justify the move. Furthermore, Creighton did not need to conduct a capitol campaign, any fundraising or oversee any of the construction for the completion of Qwest Center. It was just built. Creighton also does not spend a dime on maintenance or upkeep, a huge advantage in terms of managing an athletic department's budget and another way Creighton overcomes any losses in concession money.

But Creighton doesn't control any other events in "their" building. So what? If Nebraska wants to play a game at the Qwest, let them. They will be playing on a floor with Creighton markings. Selling the event in Omaha is questionable when they can't even fill the Devaney Center, it's good for MECA and the Huskers, or anyone else, will have to schedule "around" Creighton. Besides, with the facility not owned by Creighton, Creighton doesn't control concessions, NCAA rules on alcohol don't apply. You can watch Creighton play and drink a beer at the same time!

Yeah, but the arena isn't on campus. That is true, but it can't get any closer to on campus. The Qwest Center property and Creighton abut each other. While it is techniclly "off campus", you would need to take a survey to see where Creighton ends and the Qwest Center begins. Many Creighton dorms are closer to the Qwest Center then dorms at other schools with on campus facilities.

So while this gives WSU fans something to blow their horns about, Creighton fan needs to know that they got a pretty good deal going and with the addition of 2,000 seats- seats that cost them nothing, their home court will be much louder and provide Creighton with a great opportunity to increase revenue and expand the fan base without increasing ticket prices. A pretty good deal. And a non-issue for spewing trash talk.

[rjl]

OF all of the dumb arguements on Valleytalk, renting vs. owning a basketball arena has to rank right up near the top. There are too many factors that determine which option is best, and to berate a school for renting is just stupid and really scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to find some dirt.

Does Creighton get all of the concession money? No.
Does Creighton have to pay rent? Yes.
Does Creighton control other events that come into the arena? No.
Is the Facility off-campus? Yes.

But to really get an accurate assesment of the situation, you need to look further.

Was Creighton given an option to purchase the Civic and have their own arena? Yes, but at the time, the Civic was sold out for Bluejay games and revenue essentially capped. Renting the Qwest offered several more thousand people to attend Bluejay games.

How does Creighton overcome the loss in concession revenue? Simple, having 8,000 more people at a game negates any loss in concessions and furthermore, Creighton does have their own concessions inside the Qwest Center, where they offer team apparel and other "gear". Those are big ticket items.

How can you justify upto $20,000 per game for rent? At even $10 per ticket (Bluejay tix are much more), it only takes 2,000 tickets to pay the rent. Capacity at the Civic was around 9,000, The Qwest was 15,500. Creighton has by far exceeded the 2,000 fan requirement to justify the move. Furthermore, Creighton did not need to conduct a capitol campaign, any fundraising or oversee any of the construction for the completion of Qwest Center. It was just built. Creighton also does not spend a dime on maintenance or upkeep, a huge advantage in terms of managing an athletic department's budget and another way Creighton overcomes any losses in concession money.

But Creighton doesn't control any other events in "their" building. So what? If Nebraska wants to play a game at the Qwest, let them. They will be playing on a floor with Creighton markings. Selling the event in Omaha is questionable when they can't even fill the Devaney Center, it's good for MECA and the Huskers, or anyone else, will have to schedule "around" Creighton. Besides, with the facility not owned by Creighton, Creighton doesn't control concessions, NCAA rules on alcohol don't apply. You can watch Creighton play and drink a beer at the same time!

Yeah, but the arena isn't on campus. That is true, but it can't get any closer to on campus. The Qwest Center property and Creighton abut each other. While it is techniclly "off campus", you would need to take a survey to see where Creighton ends and the Qwest Center begins. Many Creighton dorms are closer to the Qwest Center then dorms at other schools with on campus facilities.

So while this gives WSU fans something to blow their horns about, Creighton fan needs to know that they got a pretty good deal going and with the addition of 2,000 seats- seats that cost them nothing, their home court will be much louder and provide Creighton with a great opportunity to increase revenue and expand the fan base without increasing ticket prices. A pretty good deal. And a non-issue for spewing trash talk.

That's nice and all, but if you'll notice it was a Creightonian starting the ruckus this time.

I asked an honest question, and Blueblood thinks I get BUUUURRRRNED with the response.

I really don't think it's that big an issue, although I'm personally VERY happy the Shocks play on campus.

[MoValley John]

That's nice and all, but if you'll notice it was a Creightonian starting the ruckus this time.

I asked an honest question, and Blueblood thinks I get BUUUURRRRNED with the response.

I really don't think it's that big an issue, although I'm personally VERY happy the Shocks play on campus.

I am not blaming WSU fan for this stupid debate. It is an ignorant arguement on both fan bases part. It is also quite tiresome. Different schools have different needs, no more or no less.

[blueblood]

Sometimes honest questions are stupid. This was one of those times.

[rjl]

Sometimes honest questions are stupid. This was one of those times.

How was it?

For once in your valleytalk career, back up some of the nonsense you type with some logical, thought out argument.

I'm betting you cant.

[MoValley John]

How was it?

For once in your valleytalk career, back up some of the nonsense you type with some logical, thought out argument.

I'm betting you cant.

I will back you up on this RJL, it wasn't a stupid question, unless, of course, you are an attorney. Lawyers live and die by the credo "Don't ever ask a question if you don't alredy know the answer." While it was not a stupid question on your part, many ambulance chasers will take it and run. I suspect their are many more big time programs that rent than either you or I know. In fact, The University of Nebraska technically does not own the Devaney Center. It is owned by the State Fair Board. Then again, I wouldn't classify NU as "Big Time.":lol:

[rjl]

I will back you up on this RJL, it wasn't a stupid question, unless, of course, you are an attorney. Lawyers live and die by the credo "Don't ever ask a question if you don't alredy know the answer." While it was not a stupid question on your part, many ambulance chasers will take it and run. I suspect their are many more big time programs that rent than either you or I know. In fact, The University of Nebraska technically does not own the Devaney Center. It is owned by the State Fair Board. Then again, I wouldn't classify NU as "Big Time.":lol:

Thank you.

The initial post in this thread said "top-notch" teams, and every top notch team that immediately came to mind (UNC, KU, Duke, UCLA, etc.) all play on campus.

I just wanted to know which top-notch teams didn't.

[blueblood]

As you say the following was an honest question,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bird
Add Louisville to the number of top notch teams that choose to rent their arena.


Who are the others?

The topic of arenas being owned and rented and on campus and off campus has been debated so many times on this board it could not be counted. WSU proud of their on campus WSU ownes arena. Creighton proud of its close to campus rented arena. You come across as proud of how smart you think you are. After the number of times this topic has been debated and as simple of a google your question could have been answered, it comes off as a very stupid question of someone so proud of himself.

[outpost]

Let me take a different angle on this.

I'm not a Louisville fan, but I'm disappointed that they are no longer going to play in Freedom Hall. That place has some history.

Sorry for [stupidly] stating the obvious here.

[BradleyBrave]

I know this has been touched on, but these schools immediately come to mind as far as schools that rent or will rent their home basketball arena -

Bradley
Creighton
Louisville
Marquette
Kentucky
Georgetown
UNLV
USC
St. John's
UConn (play most of their games in Hartford)

Those are just the ones that immediately come to mind. As others have said, I am sure that in a perfect world every school would want a large, state-of-the-art facility on their campus. That just isn't reality for a lot of these schools though. I know that from Bradley's perspective, they are quite happy with the Civic Center, and have done very well there.
DePaul

[cufan]

Not a bad wrap-up MVJ, but you left out one other factor. CU did not have to use up several acres of very expensive property for an arena and parking lot. CU's property can be put to use for the new academic facilities, student dorms, etc.

[blueblood]

I will back you up on this RJL, it wasn't a stupid question, unless, of course, you are an attorney. Lawyers live and die by the credo "Don't ever ask a question if you don't alredy know the answer." While it was not a stupid question on your part, many ambulance chasers will take it and run. I suspect their are many more big time programs that rent than either you or I know. In fact, The University of Nebraska technically does not own the Devaney Center. It is owned by the State Fair Board. Then again, I wouldn't classify NU as "Big Time.":lol:


It was a stupid question. board newbie.

[MoValley John]

It was a stupid question. board newbie.

More like bored newbie.

[outpost]

Or floored from a doobie......

[Rasputin]

The city of Louisville has bigger fish in mind with this arena, they are after an NBA team. Remember a few years back when the original Charlotte franchise was rellocating? Louisville was being mentioned along with New Orleans and Nashville.

The renting vs owning debate is tiresome, debate it all you want, nobody is right or wrong. You just do whats best for your program/budget.

[outpost]

Remember the old American Basketball Association? As a kid, I used to be able to tune in and listen to Kentucky Colonels games on the radio. Games were broadcast on Radio 85 out of Louisville (can't remember the call letters).

They had Dan Issel and Louis Dampier, Goose Ligon, and a few others. They also had Artis Gilmore (how could I forget him?).

Anyway, they had a lot of UK Wildcat players.....playing in Louisville, in Freedom Hall. They played against the likes of NY Nets, Virginia Squires (and Dr. J.), the Utah Stars (with Zelmo Beatty, one of the strangest basketball names I ever remember).

I know this topic is about Louisville's new arena, but I for one will miss Louisville's old arena.

[DaShox]

For the 10 year olds out there. DaShox and the major part of all Shocker posters feel EVERYONE needs their own arena to 'get to the next level'. WSU is 'at the next level' because it owns its own arena. The before mentioned programs do not own their own arenas and thus they are not on par yet with mighty WSU. If we need to do this again for any 5 yera olds reading let me know.

1. I never said WSU is at the next level.
2. I never said WSU is a the next level because it owns its own arena.
3. Show me where I said word for word "everyone needs their own arena to get to the next level".
4. By and large I have stayed out of the rented vs. owned debate.

Of course, Blueblood also believed Creighton sold $3.8 million tickets and that there was no such thing as the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.

[oledawg]

Thank you.

The initial post in this thread said "top-notch" teams, and every top notch team that immediately came to mind (UNC, KU, Duke, UCLA, etc.) all play on campus.

I just wanted to know which top-notch teams didn't.
top notch = kentucky

[oledawg]

I know this has been touched on, but these schools immediately come to mind as far as schools that rent or will rent their home basketball arena -

Bradley
Creighton
Louisville
Marquette
Kentucky
Georgetown
UNLV
USC
St. John's
UConn (play most of their games in Hartford)

Those are just the ones that immediately come to mind. As others have said, I am sure that in a perfect world every school would want a large, state-of-the-art facility on their campus. That just isn't reality for a lot of these schools though. I know that from Bradley's perspective, they are quite happy with the Civic Center, and have done very well there.
DePaulunlv's thomas and mack is on campus facility.

[brokeback shocker]

to me the question is whether you would have your own arena or not.

Of course you would. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't.

Hell the fraternaties and sororities at Creighton are in dorms. They don't even have their own structures.

[rjl]

top notch = kentucky

Well, that is one I didn't know then, isn't it?

That said, out of the list of teams given, I'd only say that UK, UConn, Louisville, and Georgetown are "top notch".

I'm not getting into the rented vs. on campus dispute, but it seems like you are trying to shift the number of colleges in your favor.

I'm fine with Creighton renting. That's cool.

I just much prefer having an on-campus arena.

[blueblood]

to me the question is whether you would have your own arena or not.

Of course you would. Sometimes it makes sense, sometimes it doesn't.

Hell the fraternaties and sororities at Creighton are in dorms. They don't even have their own structures.


Off the top of my head I know Phi Kappa Psi and Pi Kappa Alpha have large houses off campus. There could be more. Minor correction.

[blueblood]

1. I never said WSU is at the next level.
2. I never said WSU is a the next level because it owns its own arena.
3. Show me where I said word for word "everyone needs their own arena to get to the next level".
4. By and large I have stayed out of the rented vs. owned debate.

Of course, Blueblood also believed Creighton sold $3.8 million tickets and that there was no such thing as the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.


I'll get to you later. Too many Bud Lights last night. Head hurts. Maybe later tonight. I know you can't stand it but since you "own" me I want to be at my best.

[outpost]

Off the top of my head I know Phi Kappa Psi and Pi Kappa Alpha have large houses off campus. There could be more. Minor correction.

Are they owned or rented?

(sorry, couldn't resist!!)

[MSNSaluki]

Remember the old American Basketball Association? As a kid, I used to be able to tune in and listen to Kentucky Colonels games on the radio. Games were broadcast on Radio 85 out of Louisville (can't remember the call letters).

They had Dan Issel and Louis Dampier, Goose Ligon, and a few others. They also had Artis Gilmore (how could I forget him?).

Anyway, they had a lot of UK Wildcat players.....playing in Louisville, in Freedom Hall. They played against the likes of NY Nets, Virginia Squires (and Dr. J.), the Utah Stars (with Zelmo Beatty, one of the strangest basketball names I ever remember).

I know this topic is about Louisville's new arena, but I for one will miss Louisville's old arena.

I grew up in Kentucky and went to many state tournaments at Freedom Hall. Agreed, Outpost ... it's a very cool place.:yes: :yes:

[DaShox]

WSU proud of their on campus WSU ownes arena.

Gee, I wuld hav nut evr gessed you wur get ing bizee with Bud.

[superjay]

I don't think Creighton could have afforded to build the Qwest, anyway. Not now.:innocent:

[Rasputin]

I don't think Creighton could have afforded to build the Qwest, anyway. Not now.:innocent:

Something tells me a $300 million arena isn't in any university's budget...

[C0|db|00ded]

Something tells me a $300 million arena isn't in any university's budget...

The arena didn't cost 300 million my dear fact-less friend. I would assume that if Creighton were to find the nickels to build their own arena they wouldn't also build a hotel and convention center... :no: Can you imagine a 13,000 seat ( the original seating capacity before multiple expansions) costing 300 million? :lol: Oklahoma's Ford Center only cost 97 million and it seats 20,000.


T


...:cool:

[Bird]

The Qwest was $291 million for just the arena and convention center. The hotel is entirely separate.

[E-Villan]

Remember the old American Basketball Association? As a kid, I used to be able to tune in and listen to Kentucky Colonels games on the radio. Games were broadcast on Radio 85 out of Louisville (can't remember the call letters).

They had Dan Issel and Louis Dampier, Goose Ligon, and a few others. They also had Artis Gilmore (how could I forget him?).

Anyway, they had a lot of UK Wildcat players.....playing in Louisville, in Freedom Hall. They played against the likes of NY Nets, Virginia Squires (and Dr. J.), the Utah Stars (with Zelmo Beatty, one of the strangest basketball names I ever remember).

I know this topic is about Louisville's new arena, but I for one will miss Louisville's old arena.

WOW Outpost, I thought I was the only one who did that or remembered them. The games were on WHAS, which is 840 I believe.

[C0|db|00ded]

The Qwest was $291 million for just the arena and convention center. The hotel is entirely separate.

Then that would be the greatest misappropriation of public funds in the history of Omah'ha I suspect. That figure must be including street improvements and land acquisition or some extremely expensive variable. Our arena is costing 130 million and OKC's was 97 million. No way did your 13,000 seat (original seating) arena cost over 150 million (and I'm being generous here) to design and build. How much was the convention center purported to cost?


T


...:cool:

[Rasputin]

Then that would be the greatest misappropriation of public funds in the history of Omah'ha I suspect. That figure must be including street improvements and land acquisition or some extremely expensive variable. Our arena is costing 130 million and OKC's was 97 million. No way did your 13,000 seat (original seating) arena cost over 150 million (and I'm being generous here) to design and build. How much was the convention center purported to cost?


T


...:cool:

Once again, Clod, YOUR facts are wrong. 13,000???? The Qwest Center was built as a 15,500-seat arena. The $291 million pricetag was the entire project pricetag (arena, convention center, site development, parking, sewers etc).

A lot of variables go into an arena's cost...You can build a 20,000-seat arena for under $100 million, but it won't have all the bells and whistles. Omaha spent money on bells and whistles.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Once again, Clod, YOUR facts are wrong. 13,000???? The Qwest Center was built as a 15,500-seat arena. The $291 million pricetag was the entire project pricetag (arena, convention center, site development, parking, sewers etc).

A lot of variables go into an arena's cost...You can build a 20,000-seat arena for under $100 million, but it won't have all the bells and whistles. Omaha spent money on bells and whistles.

Ras is right. The arena was constructed as a 15,500 seat locale. The current expansion will add approximately 2000 seats. Contrary to Cold's post, there have not been multiple expansions; the current expansion is the first.

Because the arena and convention center were build and bid as a combined package, I am not aware of any way to determine how much of the cost went to the arena and how much went to the convention center. The hotel was definitely a separate project though.

BTW Ras, please don't ever hit the quote button on Coldblooded's posts again. :original: I've got him on my ignore list and therefore never see his dribble unless somebody hits the quote button.

[KC Shox]

Who cares about Louisville's arena.

[C0|db|00ded]

Once again, Clod, YOUR facts are wrong. 13,000???? The Qwest Center was built as a 15,500-seat arena. The $291 million pricetag was the entire project pricetag (arena, convention center, site development, parking, sewers etc).

A lot of variables go into an arena's cost...You can build a 20,000-seat arena for under $100 million, but it won't have all the bells and whistles. Omaha spent money on bells and whistles.

Forgive me for not having the exact details on the Qwiet Center's expansion history but for some reason I remember talks of a "two-stage" expansion plan with the eventuality of a 17,000 seat arena (for basketball). I thought it originally was around 13k and then went to 15k and then 17k. Maybe those discussions took place before the building was even built...

The totally inclusive numbers make more sense now. Wichita will spend nearly 200 million in total development costs for a 15,000 seat arena with a possibility for seating expansion (if what I hear from the latest reports is accurate). That is comparable to your numbers if you subtract the convention center.


T


...:cool:

[C0|db|00ded]

Ras is right. The arena was constructed as a 15,500 seat locale. The current expansion will add approximately 2000 seats. Contrary to Cold's post, there have not been multiple expansions; the current expansion is the first.

Because the arena and convention center were build and bid as a combined package, I am not aware of any way to determine how much of the cost went to the arena and how much went to the convention center. The hotel was definitely a separate project though.

BTW Ras, please don't ever hit the quote button on Coldblooded's posts again. :original: I've got him on my ignore list and therefore never see his dribble unless somebody hits the quote button.

Was he referring to my cross-over dribble or my drivel? :ermm:


T


...:cool:

[Rasputin]

Actually, the original arena/convention center plans called for a 20,000+ seat arena and a 28-story Marriott anchor hotel, as proposed by former Mayor Daub. Those plans were axed by our current mayor in favor of the 15,500 seat arena and smaller hotel. Obviously a bad move on Mayor Fahey's part, since the Q is expanding already after 4 years of operation and there aren't enough hotel rooms in the Hilton. In all fairness, I don't think anyone could have forseen the success the Q has been so far.

[Fraydog]

The arena didn't cost 300 million my dear fact-less friend. I would assume that if Creighton were to find the nickels to build their own arena they wouldn't also build a hotel and convention center... :no: Can you imagine a 13,000 seat ( the original seating capacity before multiple expansions) costing 300 million? :lol: Oklahoma's Ford Center only cost 97 million and it seats 20,000.


T


...:cool:

The United Center cost pretty close to $200 million, but that's because they had to place 200 skyboxes in there. I'll bet the new Madison Square Garden will cost over $300 million to build, but that will be because it will be integrated with the new Penn Station they're building underneath the Farley Post Office across the street from the old Madison Square Garden/Penn Station complex that is standing right now.

[blueblood]

1. I never said WSU is at the next level.
2. I never said WSU is a the next level because it owns its own arena.
3. Show me where I said word for word "everyone needs their own arena to get to the next level".
4. By and large I have stayed out of the rented vs. owned debate.

Of course, Blueblood also believed Creighton sold $3.8 million tickets and that there was no such thing as the Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act.


Lets start with these quotes. Put them together and it will disagree with #1-4.

Um, people who have never been to the Elite Eight or Final Four telling others how to get there?

ANo new arena. You've had plenty of time to renovate or build a new place. Face it, you s*** the bed.



Yes, I think SIU is failing because they don't have a new arena. Right now, you don't see that but it will eventually catch up to you. Just like worn down Levitt caught up with WSU


taking the next step involves building your arena while the program is strong, pushing your program to the Elite Eight.

[outpost]

I'm starting to wonder if Omaha is just a bit too close to Area 51.....

What's really going on at Offutt (just south of there)?