Is Winning Important?

[iSASO]

According to VT philosoher GoSMSgo,

"What is the big deal about winning at that level?"

So, everyone, what is the big deal about winning in the NCAA Tournament?

Is it really important, or is it good enough "just being there"?

[Ictjay]

Slow day?

[iSASO]

Pre-season. Care to contribute?

[MoValley John]

It all depends on where a program is. For Drake, Illinois State, Indana State, Missouri State and Evansville, winning and getting to the dance should be good enough. For Bradley, Creighton, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois and Wichita State, getting there is good, but winning at least an opening round game should be the benchmark. And while Missouri State should have the same expectations as the latter teams, they haven't been to the dance in what I would consider the recent past. This is just a general statement, as Northern Iowa and Bradley may be down this year, but the expectations have to increase for every team over time or the Valley is truely just a mid-major.

[rjl]

I think I used the golf analogy before, but it all depends on where you feel your "game" is at right now.

Some golfers are happy to be able to aim for the green from 150 yards out.

Others aim for the pin.

It's one thing to put together a season that will get you into the tournament, it's another thing to put together a season that gives you a seeding in the tournament that you can work with.

[NoPlaceLikeDome]

I think it depends on the season and circumstances.

For instance, last year the goal was to win games in the tournament as well as the conference. With all the starters back, etc. we wanted more than just to get there again. And in my opinion, the season was a disappointment. Sure, we made it back, but with how amazing we started we really messed up in the end.

This season the expectations are much different. New coach, new players, etc. So, I think it expectations for how they perform should be different as well. Getting to the tournament would be my benchmark of success. It's lofty, but I think that is what UNI fans are expecting. At this stage, pretty much anything else is a disappointment to us.

[cufan]

It's one thing to put together a season that will get you into the tournament, it's another thing to put together a season that gives you a seeding in the tournament that you can work with.

And to run with that a little further, it is still another thing to do something with that seeding, ala your Shockers. I still carry the pain of the Central Michigan game a couple of years ago. The Jays were set up nicely for a run with a tilt against a not so good Duke team next in line. But, we forgot what we were doing for about a 15 minute streatch over the end of the first half and start of the second and the guys were left with woulda, coulda, shoulda to show for an otherwise golden season.

Whether I am satisified with just getting there or demand winning in the tournament really depends. Last year, with the loss of Nate and then Josh, and Watts' health issues, most Jays fans would have realistically been happy just to see CU limp into the NCAAs. I don't think anyone would have expected more given the circumstances. We would hope for more, of course, but just getting there would have been understandable and acceptable.

This year, on the other hand (and barring more bizarre injuries and illnesses such as Ty Morrison's newly diagnosed Grave's disease for example), just getting into the tournament is not going to satisfy too many Bluejay palates. I don't want to expect to much, but let's just say I am expecting to one-up WSU and Bradley. If ever Dana had a team built to put it all together, this appears to be it.:bounceblue: :bounceblue: :bounceblue: :jays:

[Shox21]

And to run with that a little further, it is still another thing to do something with that seeding, ala your Shockers. I still carry the pain of the Central Michigan game a couple of years ago. The Jays were set up nicely for a run with a tilt against a not so good Duke team next in line. But, we forgot what we were doing for about a 15 minute streatch over the end of the first half and start of the second and the guys were left with woulda, coulda, shoulda to show for an otherwise golden season.

Whether I am satisified with just getting there or demand winning in the tournament really depends. Last year, with the loss of Nate and then Josh, and Watts' health issues, most Jays fans would have realistically been happy just to see CU limp into the NCAAs. I don't think anyone would have expected more given the circumstances. We would hope for more, of course, but just getting there would have been understandable and acceptable.

This year, on the other hand (and barring more bizarre injuries and illnesses such as Ty Morrison's newly diagnosed Grave's disease for example), just getting into the tournament is not going to satisfy too many Bluejay palates. I don't want to expect to much, but let's just say I am expecting to one-up WSU and Bradley. If ever Dana had a team built to put it all together, this appears to be it.:bounceblue: :bounceblue: :bounceblue: :jays:

I hope your take is right. I would love to see a Valley team stay longer than the S16, whether it be CU or someone else. It could only help the Valley.

[dawg_tired nemesis]

With WSU, in the last 6 years each season has had a different type of moral victory. First it was just being competitive every game(fielding a competitive team). Then it went to being happy to win more than you lose, next it was not expecting anything less than being a threat to win the valley and making the NIT or NCAA. This year the expectations are winning the mvc regular season, a trip to the NCAA's and possible a win in the ncaa's.

[iSASO]

"What is the big deal about winning at that level?"

Is it really necessary or is it just kinda cool?

[blueblood]

Whats the real purpose of this thread?

[gosmsgo]

He took my comments out of context.

ISAIO and I were arguing over which school has achieved more in sports, MSU or WSU. I was implying that going to the womens final four is a great accomplishement and he implied that it wasnt by asking me how many games MSU has won at the final four, cws and mens sweet sixteen level.

I dont think any valley school would call a cws, womens final four or mens sweet sixteen appearance a failure even if that is as far as they had gotten.

[DoubleJayAlum]

He took my comments out of context.

What a surprise :banghead:

[iSASO]

Context is this:
Go decided to push his theory that SMS/MSU has played more combined games than WSU over the past two decades from the following events:

Men's NCAA Basketball Sweet Sixteen
Women's Basketball Final Four
College World Series

Unfortunately for him, decades are actually 10 years long instead of 5. It was a critical, sloppy error which resulted in a massive differential in favor of WSU.

Along with that, I wondered if he would dream up some equally creative numbers for the numbers of games his pride and joy has actually won during that time period or at any time in their history "at that level".

Still never have gotten a number on that question. I wonder why?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Context is this:
Go decided to push his theory that SMS/MSU has played more combined games than WSU over the past two decades from the following events:

Men's NCAA Basketball Sweet Sixteen
Women's Basketball Final Four
College World Series

Unfortunately for him, decades are actually 10 years long instead of 5. It was a critical, sloppy error which resulted in a massive differential in favor of WSU.

Along with that, I wondered if he would dream up some equally creative numbers for the numbers of games his pride and joy has actually won during that time period or at any time in their history "at that level".

Still never have gotten a number on that question. I wonder why?


0

[iSASO]

Thanks, Mike. I knew a Shocker fan wouldn't shy away from reality. And now shall we all be like 'Go' and try to minimize the importance of winning games?

[blueblood]

Let me get this straight; ISASO is arguing who knows where about who cares what and so he brought it here for back up? This isn't news, this isn't smack, this is stupid.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Let me get this straight; ISASO is arguing who knows where about who cares what and so he brought it here for back up? This isn't news, this isn't smack, this is stupid.

And yet YOU somehow can't look away. Coincidence? I think not.

[blueblood]

That doesn't make it any less stupid. Way to stick up for your little brother Mike.

[Panthera Pardus]

Getting back on track here....

The golf analogy is perfect. Too many conferences (NEC, OVC, Mid-Con, SWAC, MEAC, SLC, etc) have this mentality that getting to the tournament is the highest they can achieve. The Valley needs to get this mentality that the major conferences have: we are in the tournament to do damage, and to get to the Final Four. It can be done, and if the Valley has this mentality for the next few years, I believe it WILL be done.

[iSASO]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winna!

[DaShox]

ISAIO and I were arguing over which school has achieved more in sports, MSU or WSU.

Bradley and WSU have the most tradition and most success in the MVC. There is no arguement. None. Why GoSmsGo started the (original) topic is clear. BU and WSU have been around longer and achieved things you haven't. Go, accept reality and move on.

[DaShox]

Getting back on track here....

The Valley needs to get this mentality that the major conferences have: we are in the tournament to do damage, and to get to the Final Four. It can be done, and if the Valley has this mentality for the next few years, I believe it WILL be done.

Amen! See thread "Explaining Wichita State".

[Aargh]

Right now in the Valley it depends on who you are.

CU - At least 1 win and hopefully 2 is IMPORTANT to CU players and fans. This should be CU's best team in a while. CU has a lot of great recruits this year and next year. It's time to set the tone and the expectation level for those players.

WSU - Players and fans want to prove last year wasn't a fluke. Another S16 or better is the obvious goal. An 0-fer in the Tourney would be disappointing, so a win is IMPORTANT!

SIU - GMU made the F4 by forcing their opponents to play "ugly" ball. The formula works. I doubt Falker will be able to duplicate Jai Lewis' 6'7", 285 lb. inside presence or that Tatum will be able to duplicate Skinn's outside offensive threats. If Falker improves from last year the way he did from the year before and Tatum can find his shot, SIU could be the Cinderella with the size 15 glass slipper. Neither SIU fans or players should accept an 0-fer in the Tourney.

MSU - Last year's snub is going to put a lot of pressure on the players when they make the Tourney this year. The players might remember or be aware of the previous snub, but it's got to still be fresh on Hinson's mind. That's not an atmosphere conducive to a win. A good NIT run can prepare a team for a Tourney run, but a Tourney W for MSU isn't as important as making the Tourney.

UNI - With everything UNI lost from last year, making the Tourney would be a fantastic accomplishment for the season. A Tourney W wouldn't be that important.

Any other Valley team - Making the Tourney would probably produce a "deer in headlights" effect that would prevent a win.

[gosmsgo]

Bradley and WSU have the most tradition and most success in the MVC. There is no arguement. None. Why GoSmsGo started the (original) topic is clear. BU and WSU have been around longer and achieved things you haven't. Go, accept reality and move on.


You have been in the valley a long time because you lacked the success to move up in conferences.

Mo state has only been d-1 for 30 years and has had far more success than wsu.

[iSASO]

In the past 30 years, has SMS/MSU:
Ever won a Men's D1 National Championship?
Ever been to a Men's D1 Elite Eight?
Won a single game in the College World Series?

[iSASO]

Had an NCAA Coach of the Year?
Won more than 8 games in a season as a D1-A football team?
Played in an NCAA National Championship Title Game on CBS, NBC or ABC?

[gosmsgo]

Why are you living in the past?

Why has your athetics program went straight into the crapper?

You went from winning 8 d-1 football games to not even having a football program.

You went from winning a baseball championship to not even making the cws for a number of years.

I dont know when wichita made the elite 8 but I know it had to be a LONG LONG time ago. What had it been...25 years or so since they had made the tourney?

What happened in wichita?

[iSASO]

You set the timeline of 30 years and now that it's not working out for you AGAIN, you're trying to change the rules. AGAIN.

[gosmsgo]

You are obviously even dumber than the normal wichitaian.

I told you I meant "decade" in the term of sets of 10 years starting with a 0.


For example the decade of the 90's.

I even gave you a dictionary definition. I realize you have probably never used a dictionary before so have someone help you read it.

[iSASO]

Stop trying to change the rules after you lay them out and it doesn't work out in your favor.

[rjl]

You are obviously even dumber than the normal wichitaian.

I told you I meant "decade" in the term of sets of 10 years starting with a 0.


For example the decade of the 90's.

I even gave you a dictionary definition. I realize you have probably never used a dictionary before so have someone help you read it.

Go, surely in all the time you spend on your bicycle--time that gives you ample opportunity to think and reflect--you can come up with a few sentences better than these.

I mean... if you're going to start leveling insults in attempt to 'win' your argument, and these insults are trying to portray your opponent as unintelligent, it would behoove you to formulate a post that doesn't look like it was written by a junior-high kid who's failing English.

It would also behoove you to check your facts, because you look pretty stupid saying that the athletic program that has won the Valley All-Sports trophy the last three years in a row has "went [sic] straight into the crapper."

[gosmsgo]

I dont think beating the rest of the valley teams in all sports beside football make you a sports powerhouse.

Now going to the elite 8 in BB, winning a baseball championship AND winning 8 d-1 football games would.

Obviously wichita state is nowhere near that type of success right now.

[rjl]

I dont think beating the rest of the valley teams in all sports beside football make you a sports powerhouse.

Now going to the elite 8 in BB, winning a baseball championship AND winning 8 d-1 football games would.

Obviously wichita state is nowhere near that type of success right now.

And MSU is? And any other team in the Valley is?

Do you even know what point it is you're trying to make in your argument?

Should we start from the beginning, Go?

You ARE aware that the words you are typing are visible to the public once you hit the "submit reply" button, aren't you? They cease to be little thoughts buzzing around your noggin and become actual arguments you've attempted to make in the discussion.

Get it?

Let me know...

[gosmsgo]

Why are you sticking up for isaio. Have you even been following this argument?

Im done arguing this....its beyond stupid at this point.

see ya,

[Aargh]

I dont think beating the rest of the valley teams in all sports beside football make you a sports powerhouse.

So now instead of just changing ranges of applicable dates you're implying that some sports don't qualify as sports.

Now going to the elite 8 in BB, winning a baseball championship AND winning 8 d-1 football games would.

Obviously wichita state is nowhere near that type of success right now.
Let's see S16 in basketball and perennial regional finalist in baseball (which is the baseball equivalent of S16). Yep, nowhere near that type of success right now.

Obviously wichita state is nowhere near that type of success right now.

And MSU is?

[iSASO]

And trying to convince us that two decades really equals 16 years.

[gosmsgo]

2. a period of ten years beginning with a year whose last digit is zero: the decade of the 1980s.

using this definition what would the past two decades mean?

[MikeKennedyRulz]

2. a period of ten years beginning with a year whose last digit is zero: the decade of the 1980s.

using this definition what would the past two decades mean?

Webster's Dictionary

Main Entry: de·cade
Pronunciation: 'de-"kAd, de-'kAd; especially sense 1b 'de-k&d
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French décade, from Late Latin decad-, decas, from Greek dekad-, dekas, from deka
1 : a group or set of 10: as a : a period of 10 years

No mention of last digit zero crap.

[DaShox]

How many games has wsu played at that level in say the past two decades..

First, it was two decades (20 years). That would be 1986-2006. When that didn't work, and it became clear you screwed the pooch, the two decades became 1990-2006.

Mo state has only been d-1 for 30 years and has had far more success than wsu.

Now, the time frame is 30 years. Once again, your rules. Oce again, when that doesn't work for you change the rules. Do you see a trend here, folks?

Gosmsgo was the kid at recess who made the kickball rules. When it was 14-0 in the first inning, he couldn't take the whipping and called do-over and changed the rules. Can we get rid of this guy?

[gosmsgo]

I 100% meant the second definition of the term decade as dictated by www.dictionary.com You can look it up for yourself

I did that as to elminate the obvious year of 1989 in which wichita won quite a few cws games.

I love how you guys are too stupid to even acknowlege that it is a correct use of the word decade.

When I am in a conversation and someone says the last decade I dont think about present to 1996 and you dont either. You would think of the 1990's.

[gosmsgo]

oh and im really leaving this thread this time.

see ya,

Its been fun but I totally realize that you cannot listen to reason.

This is the school who claims they are "better off" for not having football and making the mens tournament one time in 25 years is fantastic.

[iSASO]

This is like being in a knife fight with a man who has no arms.

GoSMSGo, whether two decades lasts 16 years or 20 years, no matter if your timeframe is the past 30 years, please back up your assertion that SMS/MSU has accomplished more than WSU as a whole. You never did and cannot make that stick.

Now if you want look more lame than normal, make the charge that from 1999-2004 SMS accomplished more than WSU and I'd probably agree with you.

You really need to work on thinking through your arguments before you hit that Submit button. You've put some pretty foolish things on here in the past but these last three days have been a shocking new record low for you.

[DaShox]

correct use of the word decade....How many games has wsu played at that level in say the past two decades.
Please note you used the plural form.

It would be better if you left the board. Permanently.

[rjl]

oh and im really leaving this thread this time.

see ya,

Its been fun but I totally realize that you cannot listen to reason.


Goodbye, cruel world!

[iSASO]

We have an update from NASA:

That first softball GoSMSGo lobbed across the plate just left our galaxy and is headed for Alpha-Centauri. I don't think it'll be coming back.

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:fuNGDAkme_dJPM:http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/05/images/021219_comet.jpg

[WSUbballer]

I 100% meant the second definition of the term decade as dictated by www.dictionary.com You can look it up for yourself

I did that as to elminate the obvious year of 1989 in which wichita won quite a few cws games.

I love how you guys are too stupid to even acknowlege that it is a correct use of the word decade.

When I am in a conversation and someone says the last decade I dont think about present to 1996 and you dont either. You would think of the 1990's.

So now you've openly admitted to tweak the definition of the word "decade" to favor your horrible argument.
As other fans have noted, why do you keep dodging the "What has MSU done for me lately" point? It's obvious since your ignoring the point that you concede it to them as you know MSU had accomplished zippity doo dah in the last few years.

[TrueBlueJay]

iSASO: You've got to win this hole.
gosmsgo: I kinda thought winning wasn't important
iSASO: Me winning isn't. You do.
gosmsgo: Great grammar.

[iSASO]

Whatever you're smoking...pass it around. I want to sound that f'd up too.

[DUBulldog]

Whatever you're smoking...pass it around. I want to sound that f'd up too.

He's quoting the movie "Caddyshack"