The Gonzaga Method, Part 2

[MSNSaluki]

Since the last thread on this subject turned into a New Yorker review on theatre in the Midwest:original: , I thought I'd come back to topic and post Gonzaga's non-conference schedule for 2006-07.

The Zags DO play anywhere, anytime against anybody. It's hard to argue with this slate ...

• Gonzaga: Rice in NIT Season Tip-Off and then likely in New York against possibly UNC, Tennessee and Indiana (two of the three), Texas in Phoenix, at Washington State, Washington, Georgia in Duluth, Ga., Duke in New York, Nevada in Seattle, at Virginia, at Stanford, Memphis.

[Bird]

I don't see any true road games against high level teams - just lots of tournies and made for TV neutral-site games. Any team would take those.

[MSNSaluki]

I don't see any true road games against high level teams - just lots of tournies and made for TV neutral-site games. Any team would take those.

My friend, you just don't like Gonzaga for some reason. Must be a hangover from Morrison's mustache.:original:
You can nitpick any schedule but the Zags are going balls out and that's what they've done for the past decade. Yeah, there are tourneys and made-for-TV games but they'll play anybody, anytime, anywhere. At Georgia? At Virginia? In Phoenix against Texas? In New York City? They are all over the freakin' country.
Cut 'em some slack.

[TrueBlueJay]

My friend, you just don't like Gonzaga for some reason. Must be a hangover from Morrison's mustache.:original:
You can nitpick any schedule but the Zags are going balls out and that's what they've done for the past decade. Yeah, there are tourneys and made-for-TV games but they'll play anybody, anytime, anywhere. At Georgia? At Virginia? In Phoenix against Texas? In New York City? They are all over the freakin' country.
Cut 'em some slack.

Joey,

you are off the mark on this one. We've all applauded what GU has been able to do. The key thought is - and I really want you to focus now - GU did NOT go play anyone, anywhere, anytime to get where they are today. They made a deep run in the tournament and then parlayed that into these great games they play today.

Deep run in the tourney jettisoned them into the limelight and they took advantage of it. Before the deep run, their schedule looked like any other MVC school.

Capiche?

[MSNSaluki]

Joey,

you are off the mark on this one. We've all applauded what GU has been able to do. The key thought is - and I really want you to focus now - GU did NOT go play anyone, anywhere, anytime to get where they are today. They made a deep run in the tournament and then parlayed that into these great games they play today.

Deep run in the tourney jettisoned them into the limelight and they took advantage of it. Before the deep run, their schedule looked like any other MVC school.

Capiche?

Do you see anything resembling Wichita in my avatar? Then drop the attitude, capiche? I'm not the enemy.
You think Gonzaga's run to the nation's elite was fueled solely by its NCAA tourney runs. I think differently. So what? Just don't be a smart-*** about it.

[TrueBlueJay]

Do you see anything resembling Wichita in my avatar? Then drop the attitude, capiche? I'm not the enemy.
You think Gonzaga's run to the nation's elite was fueled solely by its NCAA tourney runs. I think differently. So what? Just don't be a smart-*** about it.

Ok - fair enough. It is on the smack board though.

I will ask you what makes you think GU made it big by doing something differently (other than their NCAA run)? I've shown through posting past schedules they did not play any marquee games to speak of until after the run. After their success in the tournament they were given the opportunity to play some "made for TV games". So I guess I'm wondering why you disagree.

[MSNSaluki]

Ok - fair enough. It is on the smack board though.

I will ask you what makes you think GU made it big by doing something differently (other than their NCAA run)? I've shown through posting past schedules they did not play any marquee games to speak of until after the run. After their success in the tournament they were given the opportunity to play some "made for TV games". So I guess I'm wondering why you disagree.

Ok, enough with the testy exchanges (sorry) and on with the discussion.:original:

Gonzaga had three straight years of success in the NCAA tournament - 1999 (Elite 8), 2000 (Sweet 16) and 2001 (Sweet 16) - which I think we can agree was the springboard to where the Zags are today. Per your earlier info, here are their "name games" during the regular season of those years:

98-99
@ Kansas
TOURNEY
Memphis
Purdon't

Wash St.
Wash
@TCU - NOTE _ THEY MAKE ELITE 8 THIS YEAR

99-00
Cincinnati in Cleveland - TV DEAL
Temple in Chicago - TV DEAL
TOURNEY in Oakland
Cal
Oregon
Colorado
NO TRUE MARQUEE ROAD GAMES

00-01
@ Illinois
TOURNEY
St. John's
Texas
Marguette
@ St. Joe's
@ New Mexico

Seems to me the Zags played plenty of marquee games during that run.

Gonzaga went to the Elite 8 in 1999 and wound up with Cincinnati, Temple, Cal, Oregon and Colorado on its schedule the next year. Pretty impressive, even if they were at neutral sites or in tourneys. SIU went to the Sweet 16 in 2002 and a home game with Colorado State was the highlight of the next year's schedule. The difference? It seems to me Gonzaga went out of its way to make itself available for these tournaments and made-for-TV games. Other schools haven't been as aggressive. I don't remember Kent State popping up on TV all over the country after going to the Elite 8 in 2002.

So when I say I wish Valley teams would be more like Gonzaga, I'm just looking for league teams to seek out the same opportunities. In my humble opinion, I don't think we've done that. I know we're comparing apples to oranges here because Gonzaga almost HAS to distance itself from its conference to get any attention and Valley schools don't.

You won't like this, but I have no problem with Wichita State's scheduling this year. I'd love to see Creighton get crazy ... I think you guys have a lot of the same program characteristics as Gonzaga. You could be media darlings. I think SIU should be more aggressive, as should everybody in the Valley.

Sorry to be so long.:valley: :jays: :salukis: That's just how I feel.

[Aargh]

Let's take the "deep run in the Tourney" theory. The easiest way to make a deep run in the Tourney is with a seed in the top half of the bracket. Home-and-homes with DePaul and Xavier in alternating years isn't the type of schedule that gets a seed in the top half of a bracket.

CU is relying on other Valley teams' success against schools like Iowa, Indiana, LSU, Syracuse, etc. to prop up CU's Valley schedule to get a good seed.

CU's rock-solid "home-and-home" theory hasn't resulted in a deep Tourney run followed by great tournaments and made-for-TV deals. It's been 12 years and it hasn't worked for CU. Altman is considered the "Dean of Valley Coaches". If the "Dean of Valley Coaches" can't make his formula work in 12 years, why would other coaches follow his example?

During Altman's tenure CU has gone from crappy to "a decent mid-major who can't win their own league". CU didn't lead the Valley to it's current top-6 conference status. It was other schools who were beating "name" teams that picked the Valley up.

What is Altman's record in the Tourney? How long has it been since CU won the regular season Valley?

The only reason CU fans get bent out of shape when another coach doesn't follow Altman's example is that they want the rest of the Valley to stay at CU's level and do nothing to move their teams beyond the status of a "decent mid-major who can't win their own conference".

Altman takes an absolute no risk approach to scheduling and relies on other Valley teams to schedule risky games so CU can benefit from Valley teams winning some of those risky games.

[MSNSaluki]

Let's take the "deep run in the Tourney" theory. The easiest way to make a deep run in the Tourney is with a seed in the top half of the bracket.

I'm not getting into the middle of another Wichita State/Creighton border war but while the easiest way to make a deep run in the NCAA tourney is with a seed in the top half of the bracket, Gonzaga was a 10 seed in '99, a 10 seed in '00 and a 12 seed in '01.

Just had to point that out. Sorry.

[DaShox]

• Gonzaga: Rice in NIT Season Tip-Off and then likely in New York against possibly UNC, Tennessee and Indiana (two of the three), Texas in Phoenix, at Washington State, Washington, Georgia in Duluth, Ga., Duke in New York, Nevada in Seattle, at Virginia, at Stanford, Memphis.

Are these one and dones? If yes, does that make the Zags "whores"?

[smsandmsuson]

I am agreeing with Joey on this one. I am semi happy with MSU schedule this year. Barry had chances to back up his mouth with a game agianst Maryland. No dice. He had a chance to lock up LSU. No dice. They do get at least 3 BCS teams. Although two are in a tourney, so that doesnt fix things for the years down the road. Had chances for another. I also believe that we could get the monkey off our back, not just as individual teams, but as a conference as a whole if we would go out and have the mentality of "Anyone, Anywhere", i believe some are doing that(WSU)

[Rasputin]

Let's take the "deep run in the Tourney" theory. The easiest way to make a deep run in the Tourney is with a seed in the top half of the bracket. Home-and-homes with DePaul and Xavier in alternating years isn't the type of schedule that gets a seed in the top half of a bracket.

CU is relying on other Valley teams' success against schools like Iowa, Indiana, LSU, Syracuse, etc. to prop up CU's Valley schedule to get a good seed.

CU's rock-solid "home-and-home" theory hasn't resulted in a deep Tourney run followed by great tournaments and made-for-TV deals. It's been 12 years and it hasn't worked for CU. Altman is considered the "Dean of Valley Coaches". If the "Dean of Valley Coaches" can't make his formula work in 12 years, why would other coaches follow his example?

During Altman's tenure CU has gone from crappy to "a decent mid-major who can't win their own league". CU didn't lead the Valley to it's current top-6 conference status. It was other schools who were beating "name" teams that picked the Valley up.

What is Altman's record in the Tourney? How long has it been since CU won the regular season Valley?

The only reason CU fans get bent out of shape when another coach doesn't follow Altman's example is that they want the rest of the Valley to stay at CU's level and do nothing to move their teams beyond the status of a "decent mid-major who can't win their own conference".

Altman takes an absolute no risk approach to scheduling and relies on other Valley teams to schedule risky games so CU can benefit from Valley teams winning some of those risky games.

What is Altman's record against WSU during his tenure? What has WSU (minus last year) done in the past 20 years? How many times has CU won the MVC tournament in the past 10 years? How many times has WSU won the MVC tournament in the past 10 years?

You are a very selective in your criticisms...You guys love to emphasize winning the MVC regular season (like you guys have a rich tradition of doing so), but please explain to me how this is more relevant than winning the tournament, especially in years past when the MVC was a 1 or 2 bid league.

The usual WSU suspects are being what they always are...

http://www.hivtestbkk.com/index_files/image7721.jpg

[MVC Fan]

I don't see any true road games against high level teams - just lots of tournies and made for TV neutral-site games. Any team would take those.

In truth, though, there aren't many top level teams anywhere playing true road games against high level teams. You'll find an occasional Arizona or Kentucky that might do it, but most of them won't do it more than once every cpl seasons, and then only because TV intervenes.

[iSASO]

Nice work Joey. Nice work Aargh.

You cannot penalize Gonzaga or anyone for taking a made-for-TV deal, that's the perfect way for "a school like Gonzaga, Creighton, WSU, SIU" or whomever to make a big splash nationally and it involves a pretty nice payout from the TV network. It's not just one school paying off another. These made-for-TV games should be the goal, not something you view as a negative part of scheduling.
It's also a great way to move beyond the "Cinderella" story of the tournament when you do win a couple of games because people remember you more easily. As any good advertising person will tell you, "frequency" lends credibility.

I just have to question if being conservative, sitting at home and only playing home-and-homes with schools at your own level can prepare you for the Sweet Sixteen, Elite Eight or beyond. It certainly may have held Creighton back and certainly may have propelled WSU into that limelight.

Let Dana keep doing it his way for another 12 years, and we'll see how it works out. Let's just hope he isn't the one holding the conference back.

[MSNSaluki]

I do have to offer this disclaimer: Many of my Saluki brethren feel that our scheduling practices over the past five years are sound (they are) and that we should continue to go the same route. They are right in one respect ... holding out for home-and-homes with other top mid-majors has worked well for us.

But I like to think big. SIU has distinguished itself as, perhaps, the best mid-major program in the country at the moment (based on its current NCAA tournament streak and the victories they have in the Big Dance during that span) but I want SIU to aspire to bigger things. I want to see the Salukis play in the preseason NIT. I want to see SIU mentioned in the same breath as Gonzaga. Take a few big games on neutral courts, maybe get on TV and perhaps we can do more than recruit tough-as-nails 6-2, 6-3 defensive-minded guards from the Midwest.

I don't always like the bravado on this board from the Wichita contingent but I respect the hell out of the Shockers for taking the chance to win at Syracuse and LSU. I think SIU and Creighton have great opportunities in front of them they are passing up. If we get two, three years down the line and the Valley has continued to improve with SIU and Creighton maintaining the same strategy and success, I'll have to admit they are doing it right.

I just don't want to see SIU or any Valley school lose its momentum.

[iSASO]

Right on!

When the opportunity presents itself and a good mid-major program finds itself loaded with talent and experience, you gotta go for it!

Big risk can yield big reward. That is no time to be hiding at home. Get out from underneath that bushel basket and let your little light shine!!

[outpost]

Hear hear!

If MT hadn't taken at least some of these games, I would have to ask him "Coach, if not now......when?"

We've got a roster with more postseason experience than in previous years. We've also got some pretty good talent in-bound and learning from the experienced players.

Strike while the iron is hot.

Joey, just got back from Indianapolis....still a little travel weary, but looking forward to that trip to Montana. :cheers:

[DJShocker10]

What is Altman's record against WSU during his tenure? What has WSU (minus last year) done in the past 20 years? How many times has CU won the MVC tournament in the past 10 years? How many times has WSU won the MVC tournament in the past 10 years?

You are a very selective in your criticisms...You guys love to emphasize winning the MVC regular season (like you guys have a rich tradition of doing so), but please explain to me how this is more relevant than winning the tournament, especially in years past when the MVC was a 1 or 2 bid league.

The usual WSU suspects are being what they always are...

http://www.hivtestbkk.com/index_files/image7721.jpg

With the exception of the past few years, Wichita State has sucked. Plain and simple. The past 4 years WSU has started climbing the ladder of success.

Okay, now let's look at the first 6 years of DA's and MT's coaching careers at CU and WSU.

DA:7-19, 14-15, 15-15, 18-10, 22-9, 23-10.
MT:9-19, 15-15, 18-12, 21-11, 22-10, 26-9.

I'm not saying Mark Turgeon is a better coach than Altman. I can't say that. Look that the Turgeon vs. Altman match-ups. I can say that Turgeon is doing more with what he has available than Altman. Soon enough things will start to even out. You'll see.

Winning the Valley tournament takes 3-4 wins. Any Valley team can do that while playing at their best. Winning the regular season means winning frequently. Take Syracuse for an example. They played like crap during regular season.. Until the Big East Tournament. They played well for 4 games and it got them into the tourney.

[outpost]

How dare you bring up Syracuse as an example here.......:chair:

[Rasputin]

With the exception of the past few years, Wichita State has sucked. Plain and simple. The past 4 years WSU has started climbing the ladder of success.

Okay, now let's look at the first 6 years of DA's and MT's coaching careers at CU and WSU.

DA:7-19, 14-15, 15-15, 18-10, 22-9, 23-10.
MT:9-19, 15-15, 18-12, 21-11, 22-10, 26-9.

I'm not saying Mark Turgeon is a better coach than Altman. I can't say that. Look that the Turgeon vs. Altman match-ups. I can say that Turgeon is doing more with what he has available than Altman. Soon enough things will start to even out. You'll see.

Winning the Valley tournament takes 3-4 wins. Any Valley team can do that while playing at their best. Winning the regular season means winning frequently. Take Syracuse for an example. They played like crap during regular season.. Until the Big East Tournament. They played well for 4 games and it got them into the tourney.

I mostly agree with these statements. I do disagree that MT has had less to work with than DA. On paper, I think WSU has had arguably better players (until recently) than CU. That has been one of the hallmark's of DA's program, getting the most out of your players, most of which were not highly recruited. In contrast, MT was being criticized for not getting the most out of his players during the Howard, Burns, Holman NIT teams. Those teams should have been NCAA-caliber teams. I remember the criticism very well, even among some of the most vocal WSU fans on the old message board.

[C0|db|00ded]

With the exception of the past few years, Wichita State has sucked. Plain and simple. The past 4 years WSU has started climbing the ladder of success.

Okay, now let's look at the first 6 years of DA's and MT's coaching careers at CU and WSU.

DA:7-19, 14-15, 15-15, 18-10, 22-9, 23-10.
MT:9-19, 15-15, 18-12, 21-11, 22-10, 26-9.

I'm not saying Mark Turgeon is a better coach than Altman. I can't say that. Look that the Turgeon vs. Altman match-ups. I can say that Turgeon is doing more with what he has available than Altman. Soon enough things will start to even out. You'll see.

Winning the Valley tournament takes 3-4 wins. Any Valley team can do that while playing at their best. Winning the regular season means winning frequently. Take Syracuse for an example. They played like crap during regular season.. Until the Big East Tournament. They played well for 4 games and it got them into the tourney.

There is no question in my mind that Mark Turgeon is the better coach at this point of his career. DA has many more years of experience but MT has bested him pound for pound and has not only surpassed him the last three years in Valley win totals but has now advanced to the Sweet Sixteen. While still being a relatively "young" coach he has carried the title of "best Valley recruiter" for several years now and has again, regardless of what the ratings services say, brought in one of his best classes yet. If it wasn't for the tremendous 1 vs 1 disparity it wouldn't even be an argument. Considering the fact that MT has bested DA in so many other categories I just write it off as an anomaly.

Last year's game in Omaha nearly changed the tides when WSU's superior athleticism and skill dominated CU in the first half going up by over 20 points and absolutely silencing the already silent Qwiet Center. We didn't go for the kill and turned that game into what will surely be one of the most memorable nights in Creighton history. A true David and Goliath story! *sigh*

I think DA just gets so excited to play WSU that he has that game circled on his calendar for months. So his boys come into one of the best college basketball environments in the nation all charged up out of their minds and play like superstars. Later, the silly Creightonians float back down to earth after their "NBA prime-time game" and lose to lowly Illinois State and "coaching phenom" Moser Porter. It's a classic case of an adrenaline victory. I'm glad that DA and his "boys" get excited to play WSU and outperform but I think that trend will be changing soon! Every year Mark has gotten better and brought in higher quality players. CU has made some noise with a few signings this year but I'm very confident that after the Valley (and the media) get a look at WSU's new players on the court, Mark's title as "best Valley recruiter" will be secure! :innocent: :naughty: :lol:


T


...:cool:

[C0|db|00ded]

silly duplicate VT posting bug

[Rasputin]

There is no question in my mind that Mark Turgeon is the better coach at this point of his career. DA has many more years of experience but MT has bested him pound for pound and has not only surpassed him the last three years in Valley win totals but has now advanced to the Sweet Sixteen. While still being a relatively "young" coach he has carried the title of "best Valley recruiter" for several years now and has again, regardless of what the ratings services say, brought in one of his best classes yet. If it wasn't for the tremendous 1 vs 1 disparity it wouldn't even be an argument. Considering the fact that MT has bested DA in so many other categories I just write it off as an anomaly.

Last year's game in Omaha nearly changed the tides when WSU's superior athleticism and skill dominated CU in the first half going up by over 20 points and absolutely silencing the already silent Qwiet Center. We didn't go for the kill and turned that game into what will surely be one of the most memorable nights in Creighton history. A true David and Goliath story! *sigh*

I think DA just gets so excited to play WSU that he has that game circled on his calendar for months. So his boys come into one of the best college basketball environments in the nation all charged up out of their minds and play like superstars. Later, the silly Creightonians float back down to earth after their "NBA prime-time game" and lose to lowly Illinois State and "coaching phenom" Moser Porter. It's a classic case of an adrenaline victory. I'm glad that DA and his "boys" get excited to play WSU and outperform but I think that trend will be changing soon! Every year Mark has gotten better and brought in higher quality players. CU has made some noise with a few signings this year but I'm very confident that after the Valley (and the media) get a look at WSU's new players on the court, Mark's title as "best Valley recruiter" will be secure! :innocent: :naughty: :lol:


T


...:cool:


Now you are claiming to have the best recruiting class? Wow, just wow...:doh:

The rest of your post is so completely and utterly full of nonsense, that it doesn't even a warrant response. Thanks Clod, uh, I mean "Scott Walden."

Wow.

[C0|db|00ded]

Now you are claiming to have the best recruiting class? Wow, just wow...:doh:

The rest of your post is so completely and utterly full of nonsense, that it doesn't even a warrant response. Thanks Clod, uh, I mean "Scott Walden."

Wow.

Now you are claiming to have the best recruiting class?

Still haven't conquered that reading comprehension bugaboo I see. It could be that the "Great Nebraskan Insecurity Complex" has too strong a hold of you to allow normal reasoning to prevail. I will give you a break... :original:

The facts are: anybody who has watched the Shockers play this Summer/Fall will concur that we have the most gifted/talented squad of basketball players in over 16 years. My comments imply that once Wichita State's team plays a few "real" ball-games that Mark Turgeon's widely held title of "best recruiter in the Valley" will be safe -nothing more, nothing less.


T


...:cool:

[Rasputin]

CU has made some noise with a few signings this year but I'm very confident that after the Valley (and the media) get a look at WSU's new players on the court, Mark's title as "best Valley recruiter" will be secure!

Hmmmmm, not claiming to have the best recruiting class? Your words are your own worst enemy.

Stellar credibility and fact-finding skills as usual.

[C0|db|00ded]

Hmmmmm, not claiming to have the best recruiting class? Your words are your own worst enemy.

Stellar credibility and fact-finding skills as usual.

Maybe not on paper, but on the floor. MT's title is safe!

You sound very frustrated 'Spew. Got a lot ridin' on this year eh? Plenty to prove after last year's NIT run for sure! I'm pullin' for ya! Another year in the NIT would be disastrous for Creighton and all those Nebraska fans! :innocent:


T


...:cool:

[DJShocker10]

Maybe not on paper, but on the floor. MT's title is safe!

You sound very frustrated 'Spew. Got a lot ridin' on this year eh? Plenty to prove after last year's NIT run for sure! I'm pullin' for ya! Another year in the NIT would be disastrous for Creighton and all those Nebraska fans! :innocent:


T


...:cool:

You are right, Cold. It has shown on the floor. It's shown against everyone we play... except CU. I hate to say that.. but I had to.

[shockball]

When CU overcame that 20 point lead the Qwest Center got loud. The lead story in the Omaha World Herald that morning questioned why was the arena so quiet. It was an admonishment to the fans. Too bad it took a hometown newspaper to get them off their hands.

[Jayball]

This is not a slam on WSU or Gonzaga, but its not really anytime anywhere scheduling. That is just a sound bite that makes people feel warm and fuzzy.

Gonzaga plays high level opponents on the road or at neutral sites ON TV. That is a big point. I'm sure that largely negates the revenue loss from not playing at home. The question is how did they get the ability to be on TV this much. I think TBJ has a valid point that the tourney success helped raise the profile of Gonzaga and allowed them to be a "player" on the national scene. BCS teams can play them and not be held accountable for a bad loss in the eyes of the public. That being said I totally respect their willingness to go out and capitalize on their raised profile to help maintain their position, improve recruiting, etc.

WSU had several games to fill this year. IMO the LSU deal was awesome and it will be even better if any of the games end up on national TV. If Syracuse was on TV I would think it was much better deal. In this case it was something that Turgeon got backed into doing. I think some of his quotes in the paper back that up. He doesn't want to do one and dones and he had to this year to fill the schedule. That being said if WSU beats Syracuse this year and has a season like most expect, their tourney resume is pretty air tight. Most WSU fans have said they don't want this to become a habit and I'm sure they don't want to watch this years home slate very often.

I respect Altmans stance on scheduling, but it can be frustrating at times as a fan. I'd love to get more shots at the big boys than we currently do. I believe this year as originally planned should have had some more big names on it. The Hawaii tournament was originally supposed to have some bigger BCS teams. Now it is a respectable field, but filled with the type of teams we normally play 1-1s with. The tourneys were supposed to be our shot at the big boys and they have worked out pretty well for us in the past. I think after that fell through and the December 2nd date came open, Altman and Ras were desperately trying to find a bigger name to play. It didn't happen and I think they even passed on some teams in hopes they could get a bigger fish by waiting. It didn't work this year.

There is no one easy answer. So everyone just needs to go out and get the the sweet 16 and elite eight for the next couple years.

[SiuCubFan8]

Take a few big games on neutral courts, maybe get on TV and perhaps we can do more than recruit tough-as-nails 6-2, 6-3 defensive-minded guards from the Midwest.

I agree with almost everything you say Joey but one thing. Did these neutral court games present themselves? I don't know so I am just asking. They are great and all but if they are not there for the taking what can you do?

Also I think you will find we are starting to move farther along in our recruiting. With Bone, Wood, Fay(not a guard) they are not just defesive minded guards. Bone will most likley be the best pure shooter on the team this year. Not sure of how much of an impact he will make but his shooting stoke is something we haven't seen since Kent.

This is a big year for SIU/CU/WSU. IMO is they can all make some noise nationally and in the NCAA they might be able to get the more nuetral court games, one and ones they desire. All of college bball will be keeping a close eye on the MVC so lets not disapoint.

sorry about the rambling.:salukis: :shockers: :jays: :valley:

[Maggie]

This is not a slam on WSU or Gonzaga, but its not really anytime anywhere scheduling. That is just a sound bite that makes people feel warm and fuzzy.

Gonzaga plays high level opponents on the road or at neutral sites ON TV. That is a big point. I'm sure that largely negates the revenue loss from not playing at home. The question is how did they get the ability to be on TV this much. I think TBJ has a valid point that the tourney success helped raise the profile of Gonzaga and allowed them to be a "player" on the national scene. BCS teams can play them and not be held accountable for a bad loss in the eyes of the public. That being said I totally respect their willingness to go out and capitalize on their raised profile to help maintain their position, improve recruiting, etc.

WSU had several games to fill this year. IMO the LSU deal was awesome and it will be even better if any of the games end up on national TV. If Syracuse was on TV I would think it was much better deal. In this case it was something that Turgeon got backed into doing. I think some of his quotes in the paper back that up. He doesn't want to do one and dones and he had to this year to fill the schedule. That being said if WSU beats Syracuse this year and has a season like most expect, their tourney resume is pretty air tight. Most WSU fans have said they don't want this to become a habit and I'm sure they don't want to watch this years home slate very often.

I respect Altmans stance on scheduling, but it can be frustrating at times as a fan. I'd love to get more shots at the big boys than we currently do. I believe this year as originally planned should have had some more big names on it. The Hawaii tournament was originally supposed to have some bigger BCS teams. Now it is a respectable field, but filled with the type of teams we normally play 1-1s with. The tourneys were supposed to be our shot at the big boys and they have worked out pretty well for us in the past. I think after that fell through and the December 2nd date came open, Altman and Ras were desperately trying to find a bigger name to play. It didn't happen and I think they even passed on some teams in hopes they could get a bigger fish by waiting. It didn't work this year.

There is no one easy answer. So everyone just needs to go out and get the the sweet 16 and elite eight for the next couple years.

I have never posted in the Valley TrashTalk section of this board and I usually won't. But this is a reasonable and well thought out post.

[MSNSaluki]

I agree with almost everything you say Joey but one thing. Did these neutral court games present themselves? I don't know so I am just asking. They are great and all but if they are not there for the taking what can you do?

Also I think you will find we are starting to move farther along in our recruiting. With Bone, Wood, Fay(not a guard) they are not just defesive minded guards. Bone will most likley be the best pure shooter on the team this year. Not sure of how much of an impact he will make but his shooting stoke is something we haven't seen since Kent.

This is a big year for SIU/CU/WSU. IMO is they can all make some noise nationally and in the NCAA they might be able to get the more nuetral court games, one and ones they desire. All of college bball will be keeping a close eye on the MVC so lets not disapoint.

sorry about the rambling.:salukis: :shockers: :jays: :valley:

You're not rambling. Read a couple of my earlier posts on this subject ... I'm the one who might be rambling.:yes:
I don't know if any neutral court opportunities have presented themselves, but I would just like to see our staff make it clear to anybody and everybody that we'd be up for those kinds of opportunities. I'd like to see us take a chance at the Preseason NIT (the argument against, which is pretty solid, is you'll have a big hole in your early schedule if you lose in the first round because you have to allow for subsequent games that aren't guaranteed).
I hope Bone is as good as advertised and I hope Fay is a sign of better recruits headed our way. The rest of the Valley is stepping up so we have to do that as well.
I just don't want us to get comfortable. I want more.

[shockball]

This is not a slam on WSU or Gonzaga, but its not really anytime anywhere scheduling. That is just a sound bite that makes people feel warm and fuzzy.

Gonzaga plays high level opponents on the road or at neutral sites ON TV. That is a big point. I'm sure that largely negates the revenue loss from not playing at home. The question is how did they get the ability to be on TV this much. I think TBJ has a valid point that the tourney success helped raise the profile of Gonzaga and allowed them to be a "player" on the national scene. BCS teams can play them and not be held accountable for a bad loss in the eyes of the public. That being said I totally respect their willingness to go out and capitalize on their raised profile to help maintain their position, improve recruiting, etc.

WSU had several games to fill this year. IMO the LSU deal was awesome and it will be even better if any of the games end up on national TV. If Syracuse was on TV I would think it was much better deal. In this case it was something that Turgeon got backed into doing. I think some of his quotes in the paper back that up. He doesn't want to do one and dones and he had to this year to fill the schedule. That being said if WSU beats Syracuse this year and has a season like most expect, their tourney resume is pretty air tight. Most WSU fans have said they don't want this to become a habit and I'm sure they don't want to watch this years home slate very often.

I respect Altmans stance on scheduling, but it can be frustrating at times as a fan. I'd love to get more shots at the big boys than we currently do. I believe this year as originally planned should have had some more big names on it. The Hawaii tournament was originally supposed to have some bigger BCS teams. Now it is a respectable field, but filled with the type of teams we normally play 1-1s with. The tourneys were supposed to be our shot at the big boys and they have worked out pretty well for us in the past. I think after that fell through and the December 2nd date came open, Altman and Ras were desperately trying to find a bigger name to play. It didn't happen and I think they even passed on some teams in hopes they could get a bigger fish by waiting. It didn't work this year.

There is no one easy answer. So everyone just needs to go out and get the the sweet 16 and elite eight for the next couple years.

I bet you are pretty close to right on the assumptions you made on how this played out. This doesn't belong on the trash forum.

[XSaluki]

I think this thread is the equivalent of "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out."

[DJShocker10]

I think this thread is the equivalent of "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jayman]

I think WSU has gotten a lot of heat (mostly from CU fans) for the perception that they sold out for a 1:0 and a 2:1. However, I have to admit that as more information has come out about the specifics of the deals they are not as bad as I first thought. If you decide to or feel you have to do these games, WSU has gotten good deals with LSU and Syracuse. These are not your standard crappy deals with crappy BCS opponents. I am still concerned about the potential for the trend it sets, but if the MVC continues to elevate itself we might be able to overcome any negative perception similar scheduling might create. I will back off my earlier stance a little. I also loved Cold's post about MT being a better coach than Dana. Classic Cold! :clap:

[shockball]

Gonzaga wasn't entirely ethical when it was building its program.

http://www.ncaa.org/releases/infractions/1998/1998073001in.htm

B. SUMMARY OF THE FINDINGS OF VIOLATIONS.

The violations found by the committee may be summarized as follows:


During the period 1990 through 1997, the university lacked appropriate institutional control in its athletics programs in that it failed to adequately monitor the director of athletics' use of university funds to pay recruiting and other athletics department expenses.

During the period 1989 through 1997, the director of athletics violated the NCAA principles of ethical conduct.

[rjl]

I think WSU has gotten a lot of heat (mostly from CU fans) for the perception that they sold out for a 1:0 and a 2:1. However, I have to admit that as more information has come out about the specifics of the deals they are not as bad as I first thought. If you decide to or feel you have to do these games, WSU has gotten good deals with LSU and Syracuse. These are not your standard crappy deals with crappy BCS opponents. I am still concerned about the potential for the trend it sets, but if the MVC continues to elevate itself we might be able to overcome any negative perception similar scheduling might create. I will back off my earlier stance a little. I also loved Cold's post about MT being a better coach than Dana. Classic Cold! :clap:

A shining light of reason breaks through the dark clouds of gloom.

Jayman is right.

Is the SU situation ideal? No.

But is it better than the situation WSU faced two months ago, when the best non-con team on our schedule was GMU? Yes.

All the holding out for a BCS sweetheart deal did nothing for us, so we had to go out and take some gambles. Backed into a corner and needed a game? Sure. But, that said, there were many easier options that playing Syracuse in the Carrier Dome. I'm sure we could have taken a buyout at any number of BCS teams, but we chose a game with one of the biggest names.

I would prefer it was a TV game, but what are you going to do? Come selection time, a game at Syracuse is still a game at Syracuse regardless if it was televised or not.

My issue with the whole thing was us taking the SU and, to a lesser extent, the LSU deal, then coming on here and reading how WSU is a "whore" and "ruining scheduling for everyone else," instead of realizing how a tough WSU non-con schedule stands to help the whole Valley.

I just never bought the negative points, as the basis of that argument was never proven.

[DoubleJayAlum]

rjl -

I'm not trying to start a war (I'm actually in a NICE mood today), but is there any truth to the rumor that it now appears that the WSU-LSu match-up is not going to be televised either? A complete travesty if it isn't....

[rjl]

rjl -

I'm not trying to start a war (I'm actually in a NICE mood today), but is there any truth to the rumor that it now appears that the WSU-LSu match-up is not going to be televised either? A complete travesty if it isn't....

I don't know.

It's not currently on the espn schedule, but I don't think these things are set in stone.

But if both teams perform as expected, I couldn't image that it wouldn't be televised somehow.

Obviously not holding my breath, but maybe it could make CBS or the like? Probably depends on what other matchups are happening that day.

The big problem is that it's on a Saturday right in the crunch time of the college football season.

[iSASO]

rjl -

I'm not trying to start a war (I'm actually in a NICE mood today), but is there any truth to the rumor that it now appears that the WSU-LSu match-up is not going to be televised either? A complete travesty if it isn't....

A COMPLETE TRAVESTY? REALLY? Unfortunate, yes. A complete travesty? Isn't that a little overstated?

[Jayman]

My issue with the whole thing was us taking the SU and, to a lesser extent, the LSU deal, then coming on here and reading how WSU is a "whore" and "ruining scheduling for everyone else," instead of realizing how a tough WSU non-con schedule stands to help the whole Valley.


I still think it is a bad long term trend.

[SubGod22]

It's not really a trend unless it continues.

[iSASO]

One game is a long-term trend?

Can you chart that trend in Excel for me and post it on here?

Thanks.

[Jayman]

One game is a long-term trend?

Can you chart that trend in Excel for me and post it on here?

Thanks.

Come on ISASO, you are better than that. You don't need Excel. I have to admit that one thing I have enjoyed is proving the WSU posters wrong again and again on this thread. Connect the dots.

MSU-Oklahoma . . . UNI-LSU . . . WSU-LSU+SU . . . and the future which we stil do not know. We will have to wait.

Again, I still don't think the particular deals WSU struck are as bad as I first thought and the schedule needed something to give it credibility. I am just concerned about the message. Maybe the MVC will continue to improve in its positioning among the big boys and it will not matter in the future.

[WuDrWu]

I cannot believe that anyone as smart as someone that could attend CU can't figure this out.


Get it through your thick skulls people.

[iSASO]

Jayman, you need to clarify your points if you don't want to be misunderstood. The topic was WSU's schedule. You can't suddenly include MSU and UNI in your trendline statement without mentioning them.
Throwing out a statement like that without your reasoning is weak. All you proved is that you're a poor writer.

[Jayman]

Jayman, you need to clarify your points if you don't want to be misunderstood. The topic was WSU's schedule. You can't suddenly include MSU and UNI in your trendline statement without mentioning them.
Throwing out a statement like that without your reasoning is weak. All you proved is that you're a poor writer.

I cannot believe that anyone as smart as someone that could attend CU can't figure this out.

Get it through your thick skulls people.


You always know the truth has come out when the insults start flying. :bounceblue:

[iSASO]

Or you can be certain that you screwed up.

[Jayman]

Or you can be certain that you screwed up.

yeah, but just accurate and honest in this case

[iSASO]

If your goal was to be vague, congrats, you achieved it.

[WuDrWu]

I'm not sure I saw any insults unless being a poor writer is insulting.....


:no:

[iSASO]

Is it an insult if it is true? Like the ultimate defense for libel or slander is the truth?

[MSNSaluki]

Can we give this thread up already?:valley:

New subject. Or, at least a new thread for you guys to rip each other in.:original:

[shockball]

Washington craps on Gonzaga. They want a higher profile opponent. These BCSer's need to save the BS for the tourists.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2639366

[SubGod22]

It still amazes me sometimes. Does Romar know what he's saying? Drop some other school and add a BcS team if you want. But why drop an in state rival that the fans love. Maybe he just fears losing to them and can't take much more of that. He has to try and convince people that he has the best team in the state.

[iSASO]

And the legions of U of W fans will gladly swallow the kool-aid Romar is pouring down their throats. Without a game, there is no accountability, which is exactly what the BCS coaches thrive on when it comes to mid-majors in their state they could very easily lose to.

[MSNSaluki]

They have to clear a spot so they can sign a contract with SIU so Justin Dentmon can play in Carbondale once before he graduates.:lol:

PS - Didn't Romar replace Bobby Bender, the old Illinois State coach, at Washington?

[outpost]

Don't want to resurrect this argument for the sake of argument, just wanted to contribute a link to an Andy Katz article on today's ESPN.....regarding rivalries.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2690842

[DoubleJayAlum]

Don't want to resurrect this argument for the sake of argument, just wanted to contribute a link to an Andy Katz article on today's ESPN.....regarding rivalries.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2690842

As I read that article I couldn't help but substitute Creighton and Nebraska in for Marquette and Wisconsin. The similarities in the heat between the teams in the respective rivalries is amazing. Also the similarity of biggest city in the state vs. rest of state, etc really hits home. These type of rivalries are what college sports is supposed to be about.

I hope the day comes when MSU-Mizzou, WSU-KSU/KU and SIU-UI games become regular events and the fans get the opportunity to take part in this rivalry atmosphere.

[Rasputin]

The CU-Nebraska rivalry symbolizes the collective feelings about the State of Nebraska -- Omaha against the rest of the state. Or should I say the rest of the state against Omaha? I say this because I feel the rest of the state has some sort of ingrained hatred towards Omaha, whereas the only return feelings that Omahan's have towards them is the perception that they're just unsophisticated football 'necks. The growing hatred has really been picking up steam and this year's CU loss has only made things hotter.

[iSASO]

I guess there would be the same sort of hate if you dropped Paris in the middle of Montana.

[outpost]

I guess there would be the same sort of hate if you dropped Paris in the middle of Anywhere.

Fixed.

[Rasputin]

I guess there would be the same sort of hate if you dropped Paris in the middle of Montana.

Sounds good to me! Fine food, great sights...But now we can get in some world-class skiing and trout fishing as well!