Let's hope MVC refs aren't pussies this year

[LincolnJay]

Found this at the SIU site. If the refs called games like the game's inventors meant the game to be played, SIU would win about 5 games all year.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:50 pm Post subject: Brutal Work-Outs

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Attended 2 hours of the last scheduled individual work-outs Monday--Cornelius was in street clothes, walking normal but not jumping when he shoots--I'm guessing it's more than a tweak and an MRi will be run

Work-out was brutal, especially for guys other than Tatum, Young, Shaw, Falker and Mullins--younger guys got yelled at like in a Marine bootcamp by all the coaches, and allowed to hit each other all over the floor in between running massive amounts of sprints--I got squeamish just watching it at times when several guys looked like they went down for the count after getting hit hard by defensive men's forarms. This was the most
aggressive I've seen them practice ever. A Shucker player would poop in his pants if he faced this every day.

The vets played hard without being harrassed.


Here's to the ugliest team on earth being forced to play real basketball.

:valley:

:chair: SIU players playing defense they learned from Jesse "The Body" Ventura

[DawgieStyle]

Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh .......that's all I hear from that. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

Look, I agree, SIU's style of play is border line. You could call it either way. Its tough, physical, and down right scary. Could a ref on a certain night take SIU out of a game, yah. Have they done this in the past? No. And for me, to keep precedent and consistency in the league as it has been for over the decades you can't simply change how the refs calls games to accomodate all the whiners. SIU has recruited players, set up a system, a program, etc. based on them being able to play the D they do. You can not change officiating precedent now. It would destroy SIU's program, their style of play, which up to this point, based on past officiating and league office ruling, has been legal. It would be like stripping the valley of the 3 point line. What would that do to a team like Creighton???

The league in my opinion allows the tough D by SIU, beacuse to be honest, in the big boy leagues this is how they really do play D. Yes, there are offensive jungernauts in the power conf. but the same teams, if you watch closely bang as hard if not harder than SIU on defense. I think its an attempt by the league to prepare other valley schools for that type of D come Tourney time. and to be honest, its worked.

Rather than complaining about SIU's D all the time, why not accept that its here to stay and could actually help your team come tourney time. Why not figure out how to beat it, rather than complaining about it.

And last but not least. Why in the world would a program change their method or system that has gotten them to the NCAA's 5 times running? Whether its Brilliant shooting or Tough tenacious D. You don't fix whats broken.

[XSaluki]

If the refs called games like the game's inventors meant the game to be played, SIU would win about 5 games all year. 2 of those 5 would be against the Jays...

The southern 'thug' players are playing too physical? If it weren't for those damn refs causing all the problems. Same thread, different day...

[WSUfan]

The league in my opinion allows the tough D by SIU, beacuse to be honest, in the big boy leagues this is how they really do play D. Yes, there are offensive jungernauts in the power conf. but the same teams, if you watch closely bang as hard if not harder than SIU on defense. I think its an attempt by the league to prepare other valley schools for that type of D come Tourney time. and to be honest, its worked.

Rather than complaining about SIU's D all the time, why not accept that its here to stay and could actually help your team come tourney time. Why not figure out how to beat it, rather than complaining about it.

So ... SIU has been playing "football" defense all these years for the benefit of the other Valley schools? The fact that SIU has been losing its first round NCAA tourney games for several years isn't a problem because SIU cares more for the rest of the Valley than for itself? WOW!! I guess the rest of us should thank SIU for its selflessness. :ermm:

[DawgieStyle]

So ... SIU has been playing "football" defense all these years for the benefit of the other Valley schools? The fact that SIU has been losing its first round NCAA tourney games for several years isn't a problem because SIU cares more for the rest of the Valley than for itself? WOW!! I guess the rest of us should thank SIU for its selflessness. :ermm:


no, thank the league. I highly doubt SIU really wants to do any of you favors.

[MSNSaluki]

So ... SIU has been playing "football" defense all these years for the benefit of the other Valley schools? The fact that SIU has been losing its first round NCAA tourney games for several years isn't a problem because SIU cares more for the rest of the Valley than for itself? WOW!! I guess the rest of us should thank SIU for its selflessness. :ermm:

C'mon WSUfan ... we've got a one-year, first-round losing streak in the NCAA tournament. You're better than that!:lol:

And, to lose in the first round of several NCAA tournaments, you actually have to qualify for several NCAA tournaments.:yes:

Now, about our defense ... :innocent:

[Aargh]

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D and then SIU's lack of offense is going to bite them.

WSU is taking a shot at working against SIU's D this year. Karon Bradley is 5'11", 190 and quick. Try to knock him down. Ogirri put on between 15 and 20 pounds over the summer. He's 6'2", 177. Probably still mostly a spot-up 3 shooter, but he's planning on using the extra muscle for contested drives for pull-ups or drives to the basket. Mekel (6'3", 193) has amazing lateral quickness and a crossover that he can control while dodging flying linebackers.

SIU better have some great backcourt depth. Bruaer is going to run the backcourt into the ground with his downcourt speed. Ogirri is going to require a player in his face and will be a threat to penetrate. KBrad is going to go body-check to body-check with any SIU player on both O and D. Mekel is going to be the "you missed me - I'm over here now" guy. Cooz will be the 5th player wearing down SIU's 3-guard backcourt.

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D

The obvious way to beat SIU's D is to put up a shot. Contact that is never called in ball-handling situations is always called in shooting situations. Someone is going to go to the free throw line A LOT and put SIU's D on the bench

[jt45]

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D and then SIU's lack of offense is going to bite them.

WSU is taking a shot at working against SIU's D this year. Karon Bradley is 5'11", 190 and quick. Try to knock him down. Ogirri put on between 15 and 20 pounds over the summer. He's 6'2", 177. Probably still mostly a spot-up 3 shooter, but he's planning on using the extra muscle for contested drives for pull-ups or drives to the basket. Mekel (6'3", 193) has amazing lateral quickness and a crossover that he can control while dodging flying linebackers.

SIU better have some great backcourt depth. Bruaer is going to run the backcourt into the ground with his downcourt speed. Ogirri is going to require a player in his face and will be a threat to penetrate. KBrad is going to go body-check to body-check with any SIU player on both O and D. Mekel is going to be the "you missed me - I'm over here now" guy. Cooz will be the 5th player wearing down SIU's 3-guard backcourt.

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D

The obvious way to beat SIU's D is to put up a shot. Contact that is never called in ball-handling situations is always called in shooting situations. Someone is going to go to the free throw line A LOT and put SIU's D on the bench
Yeah ok, but the difference this year is that we DO have a full bench and not just a 7 man rotation=alot more intense pressure and fouls to give!!

[Divergence]

The southern 'thug' players are playing too physical? If it weren't for those damn refs causing all the problems. Same thread, different day...

Did SIU hire Randy Smithonson as a consultant?

[underdawg2]

The reason Lowery does these drills (in between running several minutes of sprints) is to get players to play hard and fight through fatigue--at the end of the season our players will still be scrapping even after playing 30 plus games--no one is going to out condition us or out tough us--especially mental toughness

[SiuCubFan8]

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D and then SIU's lack of offense is going to bite them.

WSU is taking a shot at working against SIU's D this year. Karon Bradley is 5'11", 190 and quick. Try to knock him down. Ogirri put on between 15 and 20 pounds over the summer. He's 6'2", 177. Probably still mostly a spot-up 3 shooter, but he's planning on using the extra muscle for contested drives for pull-ups or drives to the basket. Mekel (6'3", 193) has amazing lateral quickness and a crossover that he can control while dodging flying linebackers.

SIU better have some great backcourt depth. Bruaer is going to run the backcourt into the ground with his downcourt speed. Ogirri is going to require a player in his face and will be a threat to penetrate. KBrad is going to go body-check to body-check with any SIU player on both O and D. Mekel is going to be the "you missed me - I'm over here now" guy. Cooz will be the 5th player wearing down SIU's 3-guard backcourt.

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D

The obvious way to beat SIU's D is to put up a shot. Contact that is never called in ball-handling situations is always called in shooting situations. Someone is going to go to the free throw line A LOT and put SIU's D on the bench


So all of a sudden WSU players are going to be that much better agianst SIUs defense? FYI, SIU players work out in the summer and improve just as much as every other teams.

As for backcourt depth SIU has it. Mullins, Tatum, Young, Clemmon, Green and posibly Bone. I am sure Green won't be intimidate by Orrgi's 6'2" 177 lbs.

[redbirdtim]

I will say that interpretations of rules and everything change all the time. So, I believe the league can decide how loose or tight they want to call something, and I doubt they really care what SIU has to say about it. Also, in society, sometimes laws aren't enforced, but they are still laws. If officials believe SIU is committing fouls, then SIU will have to change their style. If the league does this, will SIU be in trouble if they don't switch...you betcha.

However, until SIU gets called on these borderline calls, you have to play the game expecting there to be actions that borderline fouls.

[SiuCubFan8]

The b!tching and moaning has already started and the season is still about a month away. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :salukis:

[cufan]

Physical play is one thing. Grabbing the ball handler's forearm or tring to impede his movement by sticking a forearm across his chest are another. I wish they would call the grabbing and the forearm across the chest unless you are going to let the ballhandler tuck the ball away and run - and I'm not saying that only SIU players do this. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with SIU or other defenses making a player earn his positioning on the court.

[WSUbballer]

The b!tching and moaning has already started and the season is still about a month away. :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :salukis:
Wouldn't you b!tch and moan if a man's forearms were constantly wedged up against your junk??:helpsmilie:

[SiuCubFan8]

Wouldn't you b!tch and moan if a man's forearms were constantly wedged up against your junk??:helpsmilie:

So what WSU/CU/ect fan had a SIU player's forearm wedged up against there junk?

Get over it or at least wait until the games start to start you b!tching and moaning!

[MoValley John]

For a moment I thought thta this thread was about the inept MVC officiating, but it turned out to be a slam solely at SIU defense. In reality, SIU gets away with the style of play because MVC officiating sucks, can no longer keep up with the athleticism and speed in the conference and misses tons of stuff. They miss it because the game has become too fast for current officials, passing in the Valley has become a fine art and the refs spend too much time trying to get into position, missing easy calls. It's time for Elgin to really step up in hiring quality officials, something he has said is a priority. With better officials the rest will take care of itself.

[DawgieStyle]

right.....what's funny is all these people crying for us not to be called mid major anymore, and that we are on par with Mizzou, Illinois, Michigan, Texas Tech, etc. Guess what gentlemen, the way SIU plays defense, is the way its played in the Big 10 and Big 12. Welcome to big time college basketball. If you want to be on par with those schools, deal with it. And pretty much everyone on this board knows that the Big 10 and 12 are rough and tumble leagues, very similar in vein to SIU's defense. Am I saying as whole that SIU is on par with those schools, no. But there defense is.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

right.....what's funny is all these people crying for us not to be called mid major anymore, and that we are on par with Mizzou, Illinois, Michigan, Texas Tech, etc. Guess what gentlemen, the way SIU plays defense, is the way its played in the Big 10 and Big 12. Welcome to big time college basketball. If you want to be on par with those schools, deal with it. And pretty much everyone on this board knows that the Big 10 and 12 are rough and tumble leagues, very similar in vein to SIU's defense. Am I saying as whole that SIU is on par with those schools, no. But there defense is.

I can't speak for the Big 10, but there is very little defense played in the Big XII my friend. There is alot of running and gunning by most teams.

[rjl]

right.....what's funny is all these people crying for us not to be called mid major anymore, and that we are on par with Mizzou, Illinois, Michigan, Texas Tech, etc. Guess what gentlemen, the way SIU plays defense, is the way its played in the Big 10 and Big 12. Welcome to big time college basketball. If you want to be on par with those schools, deal with it. And pretty much everyone on this board knows that the Big 10 and 12 are rough and tumble leagues, very similar in vein to SIU's defense. Am I saying as whole that SIU is on par with those schools, no. But there defense is.

Oh boy, you couldn't be more wrong.

Defense is a bad word in most major conferences.

Look at some of the major scorers by the Valley teams in post season tournaments last year. Mostly 1, 2 or 3 spots who, left open for once, were able to hit their shots.

Ogirri had one of his best career games against Seton Hall. You could almost see a smile on his face as he drained shot after shot.

Cousinard the same thing vs. Tennessee.

You don't see guards left open much in the Valley. You see it all the time in the BCS.

Look at it this way: if everyone played defense like SIU and "got away" with it like SIU, all the scores would be like an SIU game.

(Hint: they're not.)

[SiuCubFan8]

I can't speak for the Big 10, but there is very little defense played in the Big XII my friend. There is alot of running and gunning by most teams.

Big XII not a whole lot of D.
But I will agree on Dawgie on the Big 11 comment. WIS, IOWA, MSU, UofI all play physical defense like SIU. And they are all very wery quality programs.

[XSaluki]

Last year all the talk was about the good money we paid to get big time refs, correct?

SIU has 'thugged' in front of refs from 'elite' conferences. It has nothing to do with MVC vs. Big Ten vs. whoever.

That recent picture of the SIU guard wrapping his arm around a guy to get position is a classic. Oh wait a minute... that was Funk.

[MSNSaluki]

Oh boy, you couldn't be more wrong.

Defense is a bad word in most major conferences.

Look at some of the major scorers by the Valley teams in post season tournaments last year. Mostly 1, 2 or 3 spots who, left open for once, were able to hit their shots.

Ogirri had one of his best career games against Seton Hall. You could almost see a smile on his face as he drained shot after shot.

Cousinard the same thing vs. Tennessee.

You don't see guards left open much in the Valley. You see it all the time in the BCS.

Look at it this way: if everyone played defense like SIU and "got away" with it like SIU, all the scores would be like an SIU game.

(Hint: they're not.)


I wouldn't say SIU plays defense like a Big 10 or Big XII school, but I would say SIU plays the same physical style as those conferences.

Our Sweet 16 team was special, but our following three teams beat St. Mary's and were very competitive against Missouri, Alabama and Oklahoma State in the tourney because they wouldn't back down from anybody. Snyder, Gottfried and Sutton all commented on the fact we weren't afraid to mix it up and made them fight for every point they got.

What do you think, RJL? Is style a better way to describe it?:valley: :salukis: :shockers:

[rjl]

I wouldn't say SIU plays defense like a Big 10 or Big XII school, but I would say SIU plays the same physical style as those conferences.

Our Sweet 16 team was special, but our following three teams beat St. Mary's and were very competitive against Missouri, Alabama and Oklahoma State in the tourney because they wouldn't back down from anybody. Snyder, Gottfried and Sutton all commented on the fact we weren't afraid to mix it up and made them fight for every point they got.

What do you think, RJL? Is style a better way to describe it?:valley: :salukis: :shockers:

Style is a pretty good word.

I just never see a college basketball team play D like I see them do in the Valley.

There was a discussion going on over on Shockernet about the "D" subject, where someone posted a link to a KU message board where Jawhawks (misspelled on purpose) were saying that teams in the Valley can't hang with KU's defense.

The numbers from the Bradley vs. KU game surely indicated otherwise.

And Bradley wasn't even considered the defensive powerhouse in the league.

[shockball]

Last year all the talk was about the good money we paid to get big time refs, correct?

SIU has 'thugged' in front of refs from 'elite' conferences. It has nothing to do with MVC vs. Big Ten vs. whoever.

That recent picture of the SIU guard wrapping his arm around a guy to get position is a classic. Oh wait a minute... that was Funk.

My thoughts are that the conference stepped up and hired more competent officials. Last year was an improvement over the year before. The conference can't do anything about the intelligence level of the fans.

I know the picture of which you speak. :lol:

[MoValley John]

Yes the referees have improved, but thtat isn't saying much. Valley officials are still horrible.

[MSNSaluki]

Style is a pretty good word.

I just never see a college basketball team play D like I see them do in the Valley.

There was a discussion going on over on Shockernet about the "D" subject, where someone posted a link to a KU message board where Jawhawks (misspelled on purpose) were saying that teams in the Valley can't hang with KU's defense.

The numbers from the Bradley vs. KU game surely indicated otherwise.

And Bradley wasn't even considered the defensive powerhouse in the league.

Those KU fans forget pretty quickly, although Bradley probably outscored the Jayhawks more than shutting them down.

I have to admit: It's tough to watch SIU games at times, but it's a style that's worked for us and it does make us competitive against BCS schools. I wish we had four or five pure shooters but we're stuck with StandShawStand.

[DawgieStyle]

Those KU fans forget pretty quickly, although Bradley probably outscored the Jayhawks more than shutting them down.

I have to admit: It's tough to watch SIU games at times, but it's a style that's worked for us and it does make us competitive against BCS schools. I wish we had four or five pure shooters but we're stuck with StandShawStand.

surely you jest...I though the nickname "statue" for Shaw was just a cute pet name, lol.

[MSNSaluki]

surely you jest...I though the nickname "statue" for Shaw was just a cute pet name, lol.

I hate to pick on my man Matt but his performance in two or three big games for us last year (at Wichita State?) really disappointed me. If he plays hard for three minutes of the game out there we have a chance to win it. Instead, he did nothing and we lost in OT.

[SiuCubFan8]

I hate to pick on my man Matt but his performance in two or three big games for us last year (at Wichita State?) really disappointed me. If he plays hard for three minutes of the game out there we have a chance to win it. Instead, he did nothing and we lost in OT.

Let's hope that is immaturity.
Hopfully he will have a bigger impact in big games.

[DawgieStyle]

Let's hope that is immaturity.
Hopfully he will have a bigger impact in big games.

I like Matt, I do. He does some nice things. But good god, he's got to learn to move better with out the basektball. It's a motion offense for christ sake, you have to move for it to work.

[SiuCubFan8]

I like Matt, I do. He does some nice things. But good god, he's got to learn to move better with out the basektball. It's a motion offense for christ sake, you have to move for it to work.

The entire offense needs to get better. It seems like he is either in the game and dominating or just totally taken out, there is no middle ground for him.

[Panthera Pardus]

All I'm going to say on this matter is that SIU is a perfect example of how refs call basketball games. SIU has a very difficult winning on the road because their rough style of play gets a lot of whistles, but in the confines of their own arena, it works just fine as we've seen the last five seasons.

SIU needs to find a nice balance between the two. Use one style at home, and one on the road. But that's easier said than done.

[troutangler]

All I'm going to say on this matter is that SIU is a perfect example of how refs call basketball games. SIU has a very difficult winning on the road because their rough style of play gets a lot of whistles, but in the confines of their own arena, it works just fine as we've seen the last five seasons.

SIU needs to find a nice balance between the two. Use one style at home, and one on the road. But that's easier said than done.

Last year, SIU gave up an average of 49.3 points per game at home and 61.25 on the road or at neutral sites.

MSU scored 92 in 04-05 and 71 in 05-06 on SIU at Hammons, both were wins. MSU scored the most on SIU in Carbondale last year with 64. Barry has their defense figured out pretty well from what I can tell.

The key to beating SIU is to make them run up and down the court and just outscore them. (Obviously) It doesn't do any good to try to grind it out with them, especially in Carbondale.

[pawball]

One of the reasons the US team has been whipped in World Ball championship play is due to mugger ball not being as tolerated as on the collegiate and pro levels. Gotta be able to move, pass, shoot.....use those skills to win games (not that defense isn't important, it is, but not like it's played in the US).

[DawgFan]

SIU has done very poorly on the road in recent years. :doh:

I wonder if some of you even attend games or understand the sport you peck into your keyboard trying to describe.

[cuhoops]

where's the pic of funk wrapping his arms around another player?

[Jayman]

Someone is going to figure out SIU's D and then SIU's lack of offense is going to bite them.

God, I hope it is Creighton so we can finally beat them.

[MSNSaluki]

God, I hope it is Creighton so we can finally beat them.

Amazingly, you guys haven't yet and I would have thought you'd be the first. I think you'll get us once this year.