WKU headed to I-A

[BearsCountry]

WKU out, Dakotas end.

[89rabbit]

http://www.wku.edu/news/releases06/november/football.html

[-Z-]

Wow. Do they really think they can do better then Kentucky?
There's still that I-A attendance mark to reach: 15,000 per game average over a rolling two year period.

[MSNSaluki]

Mistake.

[Fraydog]

I don't know if it's a mistake. I know the Sun Belt had been courting them for a long time.

I think I-AA without some form of financial equalization is a loser's game, it's kind of like drawing the double whammy. Lose a million dollars a year, forcing students to subsidize football out of their education, drop football, or take a risk that you could hit the I-A jackpot. WKU chose the latter.

[Panthera Pardus]

That risk has paid off for.... who again? I forget.

[siuengineer06]

Boise State

[iSASO]

Marshall?

[shocky]

I do wish WKU the best. The question is if WKU has the fan base to support a good D1A program. Time will tell. If I was a Hilltopper, I would make sure they have a good plan in place. You don't want to be like your Sun Belt brothers...FAU, FIU, ULM, Middle Who Cares St..the list goes on. Just because you are D1A doesn't make you big time. Marshall, Boise St, Fresno St and so on have put the money into their programs and kept coach turn over to a minimum. I hope you do the same and reach the same kind of success.

[MSNSaluki]

Boise State is the best example I can find of a I-AA school that moved up to I-A and has had continued success.
Marshall made a nice initial splash but in the last two or three years has been down.
The jury's still out on South Florida. The Bulls went to a bowl game last year and could get into another one this year. They have a ton of potential because of their location and their facilities (Raymond James Stadium).

Other than that, the success stories have been few.

I wish WKU luck, too, but it's going to be a long road.

My favorite part of the WKU story is the fact the 22 extra scholarships they'll have for football by 2009 will help the school become Title IX compliant.:clap:

[-Z-]

Got this off another board. These schools were warned by the NCAA because of their low 1A attendance.

TEAMS ON THE BUBBLE

Bowling Green
Louisiana-Monroe
Ball State
Temple
New Mexico State
San Jose State
Utah State
Akron
Rice
Buffalo
Kent State
Eastern Michigan



must average 15,000 in 2 year rolling stretch... Good luck WKU. (Can you bus people in from Louisville and Clarksville?)

[Fraydog]

What schools in I-AA average over 15,000?

Again, I have to concur with the WSU fans here. The economics of I-AA suck. If Ralph the I-AA homer wants to come over here, now he can see how I feel about it.

[-Z-]

Top IAA attendance...

Jackson State 26,756
Appalachian State 23,597
Montana 23,530
Delaware 22,045
Grambling 18,883

Even Youngstown State is over 15,000

See complete list at:
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2006/Internet/attendance/IAA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf

[MSNSaluki]

Top IAA attendance...

Jackson State 26,756
Appalachian State 23,597
Montana 23,530
Delaware 22,045
Grambling 18,883

Even Youngstown State is over 15,000

See complete list at:
http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2006/Internet/attendance/IAA_AVGATTENDANCE.pdf


App State, Montana and Deleware are the I-AA gold standards.
The numbers for Jackson State and Grambling are funky. Grambling's total is for 1 game? Jackson State is only drawing 42% of its stadium capacity?
I-AA schools can monkey with attendance totals just as well as I-A schools.

[Newsbreaker]

What schools in I-AA average over 15,000?

Again, I have to concur with the WSU fans here. The economics of I-AA suck. If Ralph the I-AA homer wants to come over here, now he can see how I feel about it.

While you have a certain point, the economics of non-BCS Division IA football are much worse. There's no bowl money worth talking about in the Sunbelt, and the ultimate goal is a bowl game that is almost broke. Have ANY Sunbelt teams been selected for an at-large bowl birth, ever?

Boise State is really the lone "move to IA" success story. Everyone else is hanging themselves for a dream they'll never realize.

[shocky]

Good point news. I'm not sure that D1A programs do that much better outside of the BcS, than programs within D1AA. Do the non-BcS bowls result in both programs making a great deal of money for the school??? I'm not sure that when you add it all up you come out in any better shape. In WKU's case I think the best they can hope for is the New Orleans Bowl. I don't see winning that bowl versus D1AA playoffs is a better deal. I know D1AA is a money looser, but will WKU ever make money on football and will they loose less money in D1A??? We shall see.

[BearsCountry]

While you have a certain point, the economics of non-BCS Division IA football are much worse. There's no bowl money worth talking about in the Sunbelt, and the ultimate goal is a bowl game that is almost broke. Have ANY Sunbelt teams been selected for an at-large bowl birth, ever?

Boise State is really the lone "move to IA" success story. Everyone else is hanging themselves for a dream they'll never realize.

Actually Troy was selected for another bowl berth.

Boise State is not the one success story. USF, Connecticut are both playing in BCS conference now. Marshall had great success up until the last two seasons or so. Thats the ones off the top of my head right now.

[Newsbreaker]

Actually Troy was selected for another bowl berth.

Boise State is not the one success story. USF, Connecticut are both playing in BCS conference now. Marshall had great success up until the last two seasons or so. Thats the ones off the top of my head right now.

So we have one example, which doesn't exactly provide tremendous odds nor reason for optimism. Call a spade a spade, Sunbelt football is a joke, especially considering the Sagarin ratings have it ranked BELOW the Gateway. When you play in the Sunbelt, you play in a poor conference of nobodies, with the only benefit being the opportunity to play at bigger program, get your head beaten in, and taking a nice check. The difference between them and us...we play one of those games, get our check, and play meaningful football for the other 10 weeks. Sunbelt schools play those games more times, and play much less meaningful football.

Personally, if my 'biggest' game is going to happen in mid-December, I'd rather get a NC trophy for winning it.

Remember...UConn was already in a BCS conference for other sports, giving them an advantage that WKU (and almost all other IAA's) doesn't have. USF is an upstart, but they also play in the 2nd most fertile recruiting ground in the country, another asset the rest of us don't have. These things can't be ignored, but again, you're talking about a tiny minority of schools that have moved up. For each of them, there are a number more who are on life support as we speak.

The BCS schools make BIG money at IA football, the rest of IA doesn't, and nobody from the Gateway is going to find themselves in a BCS league anytime soon. If you think you are, you're lying to yourself.

[shocky]

The D1A thing is about image..no more, no less. If you have no hope of ever winning a NC or maybe never getting a shot at a BcS bowl you have to ask yourself this. Why are we spending millions to be a BcS little whore??? Why play in a division that you never have a hope of winning??? Because fans, AD's and president's love to see their school on ESPN highlights...even if it's a BcS beat down. WKU may...and that's a big MAY become the next Boise St and for what it's worth, I hope they do. But I have to say that the odds (as news pointed out) are very much against them. I will say this for the Hilltoppers, they are doing this at the right time as they are a contender in D1AA.

[Lurking Dog]

Nevada is another school glad they moved up. They will probably go to a bowl again this year. Unlike 98% of I-AAs, they won't have to explain why the football team lost money.

I see lots of insecurity on this board. You should really grow up.

[Newsbreaker]

Nevada is another school glad they moved up. They will probably go to a bowl again this year. Unlike 98% of I-AAs, they won't have to explain why the football team lost money.

I see lots of insecurity on this board. You should really grow up.


The financial windfall of a bowl is grossly over estimated. After your league takes a cut, you fly everyone in who wants to go, and pay your own expenses, there isn't much left. You make money at the major bowls, the rest of them aren't going to prop you up by any means.

[MSNSaluki]

The financial windfall of a bowl is grossly over estimated. After your league takes a cut, you fly everyone in who wants to go, and pay your own expenses, there isn't much left. You make money at the major bowls, the rest of them aren't going to prop you up by any means.


It's the same in basketball.
SIU has gone to five straight NCAA tournaments but everybody else in the league has got a financial piece of the Salukis' action. The six league teams that didn't make it last year got bigger pieces with Wichita State and Bradley winning two games each.
Unless you are a Notre Dame and don't have to share with anybody, bowls aren't a financial windfall.

[galojay]

I think their are a couple reasons why we are doing this:

1) Get our football playing the same teams we play for all our other sports (minus men's soccer of course). Helps rivalries.

2) Perception. Their are two I-A schools in KY and 4 I-AA. Now their are 3 I-A schools and 3. WKU would like to be associated more with UofL and Kentucky and less with Murray, Morehead and Eastern. That will happen and could pay dividends in funding.

3) Perception among the country. We are a confusing entity, playing in the SBC (I-A conf) for everything but football and being in the Gateway (I-AA). It is confusing. Now we are I-A totally. You and I understand I-AA vs I-A, but average fan doesn't. Most people cannot even name who won the I-AA Championship (often confused as Div II championship, mind you). Yet, more fans could name who went to the New Orleans bowl. Sad but true.

4) Future conference affiliations. As a I-AA, we had no further options unless the MVC for some reason expands (it's not). We had peaked. With I-A football it does open some more does for future conference changes. Not saying it will happen, but at least we can have those conversations being I-A where we couldn't as a I-AA.

[MoValley John]

I think their are a couple reasons why we are doing this:

1) Get our football playing the same teams we play for all our other sports (minus men's soccer of course). Helps rivalries.

2) Perception. Their are two I-A schools in KY and 4 I-AA. Now their are 3 I-A schools and 3. WKU would like to be associated more with UofL and Kentucky and less with Murray, Morehead and Eastern. That will happen and could pay dividends in funding.

3) Perception among the country. We are a confusing entity, playing in the SBC (I-A conf) for everything but football and being in the Gateway (I-AA). It is confusing. Now we are I-A totally. You and I understand I-AA vs I-A, but average fan doesn't. Most people cannot even name who won the I-AA Championship (often confused as Div II championship, mind you). Yet, more fans could name who went to the New Orleans bowl. Sad but true.

4) Future conference affiliations. As a I-AA, we had no further options unless the MVC for some reason expands (it's not). We had peaked. With I-A football it does open some more does for future conference changes. Not saying it will happen, but at least we can have those conversations being I-A where we couldn't as a I-AA.

I couldn't tell you who won the New Orleans Bowl, nor could I tell you who won the 1-AA or Div2 National Championships. If you told me the answers, I wouldn't care and neither would 99% of football fans in America. With the exception of WKU, which has been a topic on this board, I could only name 2-3 teams in the Sun Belt and that would be for basketball, not football. The conference is irrelevant in the sporting world. From the outside looking in, the only benefits this move will bring WKU is maybe giving yourself a little more exposure in-state and only having to deal with one conference affiliation. The only money you will gain is with the opportunity to get more "buy" games, as 1-A teams are limited to how many 1-AA games can be counted as wins. In the end, you gain no more national prestige, the additional scholarships and expenses will drain the money you gain from "buy" games and you're stuck in perhapse the worst all around 1-A conference in the nation. But it's not my program, so good luck.

[SalukiProf]

A column about some of the inside workings in the decision:

"Sunday, November 5, 2006

Block that debate, hold that thought

David Hawpe

What a disgusting way for a university to make a major decision -- by closing off debate…by stopping the exchange of ideas.

Western Kentucky University's board ran roughshod over faculty regent Robert Dietel last week, as it rushed to embrace Division I-A football. With Louisvillian Larry Zielke proposing the put-down, WKU's board told Dietel to shut up.

Contempt dripped from Zielke's explanation: "People on this board dedicate their time for free. They have better things to do than let some university professor just keep talking about the same things…. He wasn't cut off. He had time to speak."

In other words, crawl back into the library stacks, Prof. We're running this place.

Regent Tamela Smith got the back of her colleagues' hand, too. "I'm greatly disappointed that the board shut down the discussion," she said. "I'm a staff regent, and the staff brought concerns to me to be addressed. I just had a few questions, a few comments."

Indeed, she had intended to vote for the move from I-AA and Gateway Conference football to I-A and Sun Belt competition in that sport. But, put out over being put down, she abstained. Good for her.

This move to I-A football is going to cost millions, and it will be financed on the backs of students, as if they don't have enough trouble these days shouldering all the increased costs of a college education. "

Full story:
http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061105/COLUMNISTS08/611050391

[shroomcap]

"This move to I-A football is going to cost millions, and it will be financed on the backs of students"

FWIW, the students were polled and they voted for the move as well, so the democratic process won out. The pro IA camp had the votes, everybody knew they had the votes, but Dietle continued to filibuster. He's entitled to his opinion, he's entitled to his vote, but at the end of the day he didn't have the votes so it was time for him to shut up.

[Fraydog]

65% of the students voted yes. The majority of the staff and alumni also voted yes. The faculty needs to realize that they work for those two groups and shut up. If there are no students, there are no faculty. So I'm not exactly floored by what Dietle did here. The faculty should consider themselves lucky to have a Regent on the board, what MVC school has a faculty member as a voting Regent?

If I was a State Legislator in Kentucky I'd call Dietle up and tell him that if he pulls a stunt like that again, then I'd introduce a bill that would eliminate his position.

[BearsCountry]

I-AA football is a money loser and even more important a status loser as well. The only thing it has going for it is the playoff system.

[MoValley John]

I-AA football is a money loser and even more important a status loser as well. The only thing it has going for it is the playoff system.

You are right, but playing 1-A football in a bad conference is also a money loser and a status loser. You don't win anything being associated with the Sun Belt, you lose. I'm not against any team jumping to 1-A, SIU, Northern Iowa, Illinois State -anybody; heck, if WSU brings back football, I'd be for them going 1-A if it was well thought out. The problem is that their are only a select few conferences that would allow you to make money and gain any exposure. The WAC and Mountain West, along with C-USA provide some upside, but last I heard, they weren't expanding. A better idea, but not a real good one, would be for the entire Gateway to make the jump. The Sun Belt is a joke.

[SalukiProf]

65% of the students voted yes. The majority of the staff and alumni also voted yes. The faculty needs to realize that they work for those two groups and shut up.

Actually Fray, faculty work for the students and the administration, not the staff or the alumni. It seems a rather silly sentiment that ANY important group in a University should 'shut up'.

If there are no students, there are no faculty.

If there are no faculty, there are no students. If there is no administration, there are no students. If there are no students, there is no administration. If there is no faculty, there is no administration. If there is no administration, there is no faculty. None of this is either here or there.

So I'm not exactly floored by what Dietle did here. The faculty should consider themselves lucky to have a Regent on the board, what MVC school has a faculty member as a voting Regent? If I was a State Legislator in Kentucky I'd call Dietle up and tell him that if he pulls a stunt like that again, then I'd introduce a bill that would eliminate his position.

Some "stunt" - actually reporting the views of his constituency, as he is expected to do the way the WKU board is set up. HOW HORRIBLE.

As for faculty participation on boards in MVC schools, I cannot say, although it is customary at SIU for a retired professor to sit on the board. [With the exception of the two elected student representatives, the rest of the board is appointed by the state government.]

[Panthera Pardus]

I see lots of insecurity on this board. You should really grow up.

This is coming from a Drake fan whose program doesn't even fund scholarships. Good grief. GO HAWKS... right, Drake fans?

[galojay]

You can't stop parliamentary procedure. To call for questions and stop discussion requires a motion, a second, and then 2/3rds vote. That took place. Just as much as Dietel had the right to voice his opinion, parliamentary procedure affords the body the right to stop discussion. Yes, it looks bad, but it was perfectly within the rights of the group to proceed as they did.

Dietel has been voicing himself since the topic came up. Don't worry, the board didn't miss out on anything. They've heard him many times.

And as someone else pointed out, yes, you are right the Sun Belt isn't a huge jump and doesn't give WKU a huge change in perception. It is, however, the first step-- the first necessary step -- to something better. You can't just jump to the top... you have to start somewhere. Ask South Florida. Look at their quick rise.

[Lurking Dog]

The Sun Belt is a joke.

You may not like it, but it's their conference for all sports. You knew that, right?

[Fraydog]

As for faculty participation on boards in MVC schools, I cannot say, although it is customary at SIU for a retired professor to sit on the board. [With the exception of the two elected student representatives, the rest of the board is appointed by the state government.]

Main difference, is that Sam Goldman (the emetrius faculty you speak of now on the BOT) didn't fillibuster when he knew he didn't have the votes to stop the first phase of Saluki Way expansion. Now I question the financing of it, and I think people will be disappointed if they think we're going to be able to move on anything quickly, but that's a different discussion. If you monitor Saluki Talk (who drank the Kool-Aid on that) you'll know I've been trying to calm people down about it, but maybe if the rumors are true and Wendler's gone we will have a different plan.

[MoValley John]

You may not like it, but it's their conference for all sports. You knew that, right?

I know that, but it still doesn't make it any less of a joke. A bad conference is a bad conference is a bad conference.

[Fraydog]

Personally, I say it would be much better if WKU would have got the Valley invite. Basketballwise, they'd be a great addition to the Valley. They've been to the Final Four before (granted it was back in the 60's) and Diddle Arena is a great place to see the game, it reminds me a lot of CKA.

[galojay]

Personally, I say it would be much better if WKU would have got the Valley invite. Basketballwise, they'd be a great addition to the Valley. They've been to the Final Four before (granted it was back in the 60's) and Diddle Arena is a great place to see the game, it reminds me a lot of CKA.


Actually, it was 1971. And we have three final fours back when the NIT was the big show.

WKU is the 9th-winningest program in NCAA history - 1,530 victories - 36 20-win seasons - 32 Postseason Tournament Appearances - 4 Final Fours - 26 All-Americans.

[Newsbreaker]

You can't stop parliamentary procedure. To call for questions and stop discussion requires a motion, a second, and then 2/3rds vote. That took place. Just as much as Dietel had the right to voice his opinion, parliamentary procedure affords the body the right to stop discussion. Yes, it looks bad, but it was perfectly within the rights of the group to proceed as they did.

Dietel has been voicing himself since the topic came up. Don't worry, the board didn't miss out on anything. They've heard him many times.

And as someone else pointed out, yes, you are right the Sun Belt isn't a huge jump and doesn't give WKU a huge change in perception. It is, however, the first step-- the first necessary step -- to something better. You can't just jump to the top... you have to start somewhere. Ask South Florida. Look at their quick rise.


Hahahaha, why not look at USC? You're not South Florida, who sits in the middle of one of the two most fertile recruiting grounds in the country, with the money of some major metropolitan areas behind them.

Nobody from WKU will be around to hear it, but in 10 years this decision will be remembered as the beginning of the end for WKU athletics.

What's really sad about this decision is that they were going to charge the students that extra 70 bucks a year no matter what...without the football move, it would've went to academics. Considering a pretty average academic school, that would be money well spent in other ways.