Jim Les

[brocks]

Just wondering how long it's gonna take for us all to agree that Jim Les is a great coach for the Valley. How I'd rank 'em now:

1. Altman
2. Turgeon
3. Les
4. Lowery
5. Hinson
6-10. TBD

[barkeep1967]

To be fair Les got taken to the woodshed last night by Weber. I understand Weber is one of the best like him or hate him. I am also not say anybody besides Altmon or maybe Turgeon could have done any better. I am just putting the Les love into perspective a bit.

[bcg]

Hard to say that Les got outcoached by Weber. Bradley is thin on the inside and had their only two quality big men foul out. Bradley played 5 guards at one point and forced to go into a zone. It didn't take a genius to figure out that Illinois needed to go inside.

Bradley didn't knock down the shots that they had been making this year. Illinois made the big shots and won the game.

To keep on this subject, I don't know where I would put Coach Les on the Valley list. I do know that he has got much better since he hired the elder Buescher.

[barkeep1967]

I do know that he has got much better since he hired the elder Buescher.

That I will agree with.

[BradleyBrave]

To be fair Les got taken to the woodshed last night by Weber. I understand Weber is one of the best like him or hate him. I am also not say anybody besides Altmon or maybe Turgeon could have done any better. I am just putting the Les love into perspective a bit.

A team picked to finish 8th in the MVC losing by 4 points in a virtual road game to a team picked to finish 3rd in the Big 10 is getting taken to the woodshed? Give me a break. You must not have seen the game.

In regards to Jim Les and how he ranks among MVC coaches, I can't put him in the category with Altman, Lowery, or Turgeon. We need to put back to back winning seasons and postseasons together before that conversation even gets started. Also, it's no coincidence that Jim's hiring of Chuck Buescher has made a world of difference. They make a great team.

[Majik45]

Without Zach Andrews, it is very hard for Bradley to match-up with bigger teams. Bradley lost the game last night because Andrews was in foul trouble and basically killed any inside game Bradley did have (I know, they don't have much of one to start with). Bradley will live and die by the 3 this year. So far, it has been pretty good to them. Even in the first half last night, they were dominating Illinois because they were hitting. When Illinois finally turned up the pressure on the perimeter because of the lack of an inside game, Bradley struggled. I see Bradley pulling some huge upsets this year, and losing some games they shouldn't because of poor shooting. Les is just working with what he has, and I can't really argue with the success they've had so far this year. If you would have told me at the beginning of the year, the first close game Bradley would have would be a 4 point loss to Illinois, I would have taken that in a heartbeat.

[Cdizzle]

I don't know that I would give Lowery too much credit just yet. He inherited a system and players and has managed to not screw it up. It'll take a couple more years for hiim to make it his team, then I'll give him his credit.

[barkeep1967]

A team picked to finish 8th in the MVC losing by 4 points in a virtual road game to a team picked to finish 3rd in the Big 10 is getting taken to the woodshed? Give me a break. You must not have seen the game


OK woodshed was a little over the top.

How did that zone work out for Jimmy Bradley ?


Did Les not know Jamar Smith would hit wide open 3's ? Might want to have somebody shadow one of the best shooters in the country.

Weber made some in game adjustments that Bradley did not react to soon enough. You have to figure it out a little quicker against good teams in close games.


I don't want to hear about picked anything. Bradley is clearly better than the 8th best team in the country. Les deserves credit for that I just said he got torn up last night thats all.And if you want to go on predictions Illinois was missing their best player also.

[shockerfan13]

OK woodshed was a little over the top.

How did that zone work out for Jimmy Bradley ?


Did Les not know Jamar Smith would hit wide open 3's ? Might want to have somebody shadow one of the best shooters in the country.

Weber made some in game adjustments that Bradley did not react to soon enough. You have to figure it out a little quicker against good teams in close games.


I don't want to hear about picked anything. Bradley is clearly better than the 8th best team in the country. Les deserves credit for that I just said he got torn up last night thats all.And if you want to go on predictions Illinois was missing their best player also.


WOW!! Better than the 8th best team in the COUNTRY? I mean I think Bradley has gotten off to a nice start but THAT might be a little over the top. :innocent: :grin:

[BradleyBrave]

I don't want to hear about picked anything. Bradley is clearly better than the 8th best team in the country. Les deserves credit for that I just said he got torn up last night thats all.And if you want to go on predictions Illinois was missing their best player also.

Clearly better than the 8th best team in the country? Wow....I don't even think they're THAT good.

Again, 'torn up' in a 4 point loss to a bigger, more talented team? And you thought woodshed was over the top? Please.

Tell me genius, how would you have defended a much bigger team when your only post players are saddled with foul problems?

[barkeep1967]

Country was supposed to be conference sorry I need an edit button.


Bradley was in total control of that game with or without inside players. Weber made Adjustments Les did not it's that simple. I do not claim to have more knowledge than any coach so I have no idea how to counter other coaches moves.

Funny how all the Braves fans were calling for Jim's head in January last year and are now calling him one of the best coaches in the MVC.

Wait until super assistant moves on lets see what Les can do then.

[Hein72]

I dont think their is any question that Weber would be at least 2nd out of the current Valley coaches. He and Dana opened the door do the success of the Valley today and not only has done well at Illinois but spread is seeds to another Big 10 team and a Valley team. So obviously he is a great coach, great teacher, and has a great system.

[BradleyBrave]

Country was supposed to be conference sorry I need an edit button.


Bradley was in total control of that game with or without inside players. Weber made Adjustments Les did not it's that simple. I do not claim to have more knowledge than any coach so I have no idea how to counter other coaches moves.

Funny how all the Braves fans were calling for Jim's head in January last year and are now calling him one of the best coaches in the MVC.

Wait until super assistant moves on lets see what Les can do then.

If you don't have more knowledge than any coach, how can you say that there weren't any adjustments made? From what you say, it sounds like you wouldn't know if there was or not. Also, how do you adjust for having smaller, less talented players? Oh wait...I forgot, you have no idea (your words). But you have enough of an idea to make those over the top (your words) comments regarding the coaching in last night's game. That makes a lot of sense.

'Super assistant' as you call him isn't going anywhere. He's lived in Peoria his whole life and is a BU alum. Whenever Jim moves on, that's when Chuck will move on.

Question - Did Stan Heath take Chris Lowery behind the woodshed on Thanksgiving? I mean seriously, no points in overtime? 53 points for the whole game? Oh wait, it makes a different when 2 of your key players are on the bench and fouled out doesn't it? I forgot...you have no idea.

:valley:

[user1]

Country was supposed to be conference sorry I need an edit button.

Bradley was in total control of that game with or without inside players. Weber made Adjustments Les did not it's that simple. I do not claim to have more knowledge than any coach so I have no idea how to counter other coaches moves.

Funny how all the Braves fans were calling for Jim's head in January last year and are now calling him one of the best coaches in the MVC.

Wait until super assistant moves on lets see what Les can do then.

I am not sure what bias you have against Jim Les, maybe he owes you money.:original: It is funny how people were calling for his head, maybe you were one of them. Virtually all of them have disappeared now. Les is one of the top coaches in the MVC and Bradley is fortunate to have him.
He has consistently outcoached every team/coach he has played this season and the last half of last season. And that includes some pretty good coaches. Even his strongest critics have praised his coaching job this year.
And even Bruce Weber was effusive with praise for Les and the job he has done rebuilding his team considering he lost 73% of his scoring from last year, and lost his starting center to the NBA.
He didn't outcoach Bruce Weber perhaps, but Weber certainly didn't win that game by outcoaching Jim Les. It helps to have a team full of top 100-200 recruits. And a couple of 6'11" post players can make anyone look like a great coach when the defense hasn't got anyone over 6'5" in the lineup.

[DawgieStyle]

Just wondering how long it's gonna take for us all to agree that Jim Les is a great coach for the Valley. How I'd rank 'em now:

1. Altman
2. Turgeon
3. Les
4. Lowery
5. Hinson
6-10. TBD

I guess everyone forgets how awful of a coach Les was before late last season. And how he squandered tons of talent during his first couple of years. I guess everyone kind of repressed that memory. He's done well this year, and late last year, but I think that has more to do with the hiring of the one assistant coach all Bradley fans are smitten with. I don't know his name, I just know they said he was an x and o's genius. I need more than a half a year of results from last year, and 1/4 of seasons results from this year for me to be convinced that Les is even in the ball park with Altman, Lowery, and Turgeon.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I guess everyone forgets how awful of a coach Les was before late last season. And how he squandered tons of talent during his first couple of years. I guess everyone kind of repressed that memory. He's done well this year, and late last year, but I think that has more to do with the hiring of the one assistant coach all Bradley fans are smitten with. I don't know his name, I just know they said he was an x and o's genius. I need more than a half a year of results from last year, and 1/4 of seasons results from this year for me to be convinced that Les is even in the ball park with Altman, Lowery, and Turgeon.

Hey DS -

Every other timeyou've talked about Valley coaches, you've always had Tom Davis on or near the top of the list. I note that you omitted him this time...

[DawgieStyle]

Hey DS -

Every other timeyou've talked about Valley coaches, you've always had Tom Davis on or near the top of the list. I note that you omitted him this time...

It wasn't on purpose, I was just tossing names out, I wasn't putting anybody in order. Tom Davis is still near the top of the list. I just think that Drake and the institution it self hampers him quite a bit from being successful in the valley. Drake is impressive for what they have, and what they are able to accomplish with what they have. It just seems to me that Drake has the fewest resources of all the valley schools, except maybe Evansville. It's tough to win like that, and I don't think its a true indications of how good of a coach Tom Davis is. I think if you give him CU's or WSU's resources, you'd see a ton of differences. But alas, he's at Drake, and he's done well with what he's had.

[3baller]

1. Altman
2. Turgeon
3. Hinson
4. Lowery
5. Les
6. Jacobson (yet to prove himself)
7. Davis
8. Merfield
9. Moser
10. Whitman

[SubGod22]

1. Turgeon :grin:
2. Altman
3. Hinson
4. Les
5. Lowery
6. Moser
7. Jacobson
8. Davis
9. Merfield
0. Whitman

[dogdays]

Interesting how Lowery is listed 3rd 4th or 5th by most of you...yet..he has won one league championship and one tournament championship and Les has won none....and finished 6th in our league last year....Turg has won one league championship, Hinson has nt won ....SIU has owned CU the past three years yet Altman and Turg and Hinson and in some cases Les are rated better coaches by our bretheren on this site...hmmm...does it have anything to do with the fact that some of you are evaluating how a team does offensively and not giving equal weight to how they play defensively....Im not sure who the best coach is but I can tell you this....CLo is not the 4th or 5th best coach in this league...and for those who say, wait he has not recruited his own players ,keep in mind he was the main recruiter for Falker , Tatum, among others...these are his players....

[Mick Taylor]

This place cracks me up. Some of these posts indicate that some of you have the memory of flies. Three weeks does not a genius make, Jim Les has a LONG way to go before he even approaches that honor. And let's not go annointing Bradley just yet, the jury is still out.

And from a pure X's and O's coaching standpoint, if you gave a coach two equal teams to work with, Royce Waltman would out-coach half the guys on that list. Give him a CU- or WSU-sized budget (especially in salaries and recruiting), instead of the comparative pittance he gets at Indiana State, and he's right there with Altman in the pantheon of coaches.

Waltman has a league and tournament title to his credit, how can anyone justify Merfeld, Moser, Les, Jacobson or even Hinson (whose teams are talented yet always seem to trip over themselves) ahead of that?

[SubGod22]

Lowrey has a chance to move up my list in a year or two when he's got a team of his own players. If he can continue his success then, he'll get more credit from me. It's easier to look good when you take over the best, or one of the best teams in the conference

[DawgieStyle]

Lowrey has a chance to move up my list in a year or two when he's got a team of his own players. If he can continue his success then, he'll get more credit from me. It's easier to look good when you take over the best, or one of the best teams in the conference

these are his players for the most part. He was the main recruiter under Weber. Many of these guys were recruited Weber's last season here.

[user1]

I guess everyone forgets how awful of a coach Les was before late last season. And how he squandered tons of talent during his first couple of years. I guess everyone kind of repressed that memory. He's done well this year, and late last year, but I think that has more to do with the hiring of the one assistant coach all Bradley fans are smitten with. I don't know his name, I just know they said he was an x and o's genius. I need more than a half a year of results from last year, and 1/4 of seasons results from this year for me to be convinced that Les is even in the ball park with Altman, Lowery, and Turgeon.

Not sure I agree.
What do you mean "tons of talent"??
The guys who didn't want to play at BU and left (Tucker, Tisby, Granger) are the kind of fallout that happens everywhere a new coach comes in, it isn't Les' fault.
The other guys (Gilbert, Gillingham, Marcello..) were fine talents, but were recruited and brought in at BU by a coach who selected them to play a completely different style of basketball.
Jim Les did as well as he could those first 3 years, and each year the losses went down, but a coach can hardly be blamed if the holdover talent simply doesn't pan out.

If you have a different observation on this "tons of talent" you refer to, let me know, but only one of those players who stayed and played for Bradley is playing pro ball anywhere, and it's Phillip Gilbert playing at the lowest level of pro ball, for the local Peoria ABA Kings...hardly evidence of tons of talent.

[DawgieStyle]

Not sure I agree.
What do you mean "tons of talent"??
The guys who didn't want to play at BU and left (Tucker, Tisby, Granger) are the kind of fallout that happens everywhere a new coach comes in, it isn't Les' fault.
The other guys (Gilbert, Gillingham, Marcello..) were fine talents, but were recruited and brought in at BU by a coach who selected them to play a completely different style of basketball.
Jim Les did as well as he could those first 3 years, and each year the losses went down, but a coach can hardly be blamed if the holdover talent simply doesn't pan out.

If you have a different observation on this "tons of talent" you refer to, let me know, but only one of those players who stayed and played for Bradley is playing pro ball anywhere, and it's Phillip Gilbert playing at the lowest level of pro ball, for the local Peoria ABA Kings...hardly evidence of tons of talent.

if you have gilbert, gillingham, o'bryant, and summerville on your roster at some point, you need to win a lot more ball games than Les did. It's that simple. I know they didn't all play together at once, but there was ample talent at BU to win a lot of games. Add in granger and tucker at various points and you have a lot of talent. Whether it was holdover players or not, it is up to the coach to produce with what he has, and in my estimation Les had more than enough talent to be successful, he wasn't until late last year. Good coaches adapt to the type of players he has, not the other way around. Les did not do that in his first several years at BU. Good coaches also find a way to retain guys like Granger, he didn't do that either.

He's gotten better, and as a result so has BU. But I'm not about to rank him above other coaches only after half a season last year, and a few games this year. He's alot more work to do.

[thetruthhurts]

Jim Les is 42-51 versus Valley competition. Tough to be called one of the best coaches in the league when you haven't won at least half your games versus said competition.

Les has certainly gotten better and he has a ways to go still.

[user1]

Since I have posted it many times before, I won't bore you with all the details.

But-- Jim Les has to be the most-criticized coach ever in his first 3.5 years at the helm.
The guy has been subjected to endless rips from message boards and from the news-columnists, and yet he has not performed all that much differently than any other MVC coach did in the first four years.

The fact remains, that Jim Les' record in his first four years at an MVC school IS BETTER than most other guys you can name.

Here is a comparison of the early years of each MVC coach hired since the late 90's plus Dana Altman.

Jim Les' record in his first four years is comparable or better than most of them.

Jim Les will finish with a winning record this year. He has been close the last 2 years, and IMO he would have had a winning record in 2003-04 if Phil Gilbert hadn't been injured. The MVC is far stronger the past couple years than it was in the prior years. How have other MVC coaches fared their first few years? Here are some records -- and many of these MVC coaches built their early season records against a FAR, FAR weaker Valley back 5-6 years ago.

Jim Les' record in 4 years--
2002-2003 12-18 .400
2003-2004 15-16 .484
2004-2005 13-15 .464
2005-2006 22-11 .667
Total/ 122 games..62-60 .508

For comparison, here is Dana Altman's record in his first 4 years at Creighton--
1994-1995 7-19 .269
1995-1996 14-15 .483
1996-1997 15-15 .500
1997-1998 18-10 .643 NIT
Total/ 113 games..54-59 .478

Tom Davis at Drake--
2003-2004 12-16
2004-2005 13-16
2005-2006 12-19
Total........37-51 .420

Steve Merfeld at Evansville
2002-2003 12-16
2003-2004 7-22
2004-2005 11-17
2005-2006 10-19
Total........40-74 .351

Porter Moser at ISU
2003-2004 9-19
2004-2005 16-13
2005-2006 8-19
Total....... 33-51 .391

Barry Hinson at MSU
1999-2000 23-11 (he inherited an NCAA team)
2000-2001 13-16
2001-2002 17-15
2002-2003 17-12
Total for 1st 4 years...70-54 .565

Greg McDermott
2001-2002 14-15
2002-2003 10-17
2003-2004 20-9
2004-2005 20-10
total for 1st 4 years...64-51 .557

Mark Turgeon at WSU
2000-2001 9-19
2001-2002 15-15
2002-2003 18-11
2003-2004 20-10
Total.........62-55 .530

[WSUfan]

Interesting how Lowery is listed 3rd 4th or 5th by most of you...yet..he has won one league championship and one tournament championship and Les has won none....and finished 6th in our league last year....Turg has won one league championship, Hinson has nt won ....SIU has owned CU the past three years yet Altman and Turg and Hinson and in some cases Les are rated better coaches by our bretheren on this site...hmmm...does it have anything to do with the fact that some of you are evaluating how a team does offensively and not giving equal weight to how they play defensively....Im not sure who the best coach is but I can tell you this....CLo is not the 4th or 5th best coach in this league...and for those who say, wait he has not recruited his own players ,keep in mind he was the main recruiter for Falker , Tatum, among others...these are his players....
WSU beat LSU because of defense and outstanding coaching (e.g. game play, in-game adjustments). MT has won a conference (season) title and been to the Sweet 16. WSU was awful when MT got here and he has rebuilt the Shocks into a major power. I think he is the best current Valley coach; I understand if others have a different opinion. If WSU gets to the Final Four, I might (MIGHT) rate him ahead of Ralph Miller.

[Mick Taylor]

Uhhh ... it appears you conveniently left one out ...

Royce Waltman at Indiana State
1998 16-11
1999 15-12
2000 22-10 MVC title
2001 22-12 MVC tourney title
Total 75-45 .625

He inherited a team that hadn't won since 1980.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Uhhh ... it appears you conveniently left one out ...

Royce Waltman at Indiana State
1998 16-11
1999 15-12
2000 22-10 MVC title
2001 22-12 MVC tourney title
Total 75-45 .625

He inherited a team that hadn't won since 1980.

So, what has happened since then?

[user1]

Uhhh ... it appears you conveniently left one out ...

Royce Waltman at Indiana State
1998 16-11
1999 15-12
2000 22-10 MVC title
2001 22-12 MVC tourney title
Total 75-45 .625

He inherited a team that hadn't won since 1980.

I didn't leave out Waltman for any reason of convenience.
I simply didn't have his numbers, but regardless of how he did, he has shown since then he is prone to repeated losing seasons and bottom finishes, and may be the most "on the hot seat" coach in the Valley, thus hardly necessary to compare to Jim Les, but I am glad you included him.

Plus, as noted above, the Valley was no where near the top 10 rated conferences back in those days, so how he did in his first few years also isn't fully comparable since Jim Les has done it in a span that the Valley is as tough and is scheduling as tough as it's been since the Oscar Robertson days.

[TurFin]

user1...when you compare the first 4 years of some of those coaches with Les, please post the previous 10 years prior to their arrival so we can compare the situations they walked into as compared to Les at Bradley.

[MoValley John]

user1...when you compare the first 4 years of some of those coaches with Les, please post the previous 10 years prior to their arrival so we can compare the situations they walked into as compared to Les at Bradley.

Very good point.

[DawgieStyle]

user1...when you compare the first 4 years of some of those coaches with Les, please post the previous 10 years prior to their arrival so we can compare the situations they walked into as compared to Les at Bradley.

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

[bcg]

Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities

Did you mean to write "the worst facilities in the Valley"? There is a reason that a $100 million renovation for the athletic facilities is starting in May. The local high schools had better places than BU. It's one of the reasons why BU didn't get many good coaching canidates 5 years ago.

[DUBulldog]

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

I can't speak for TurFin.....but my guess is that he was advocating just the opposite....that Les walked into a much better situation than Altman, Turgeon, Davis, McDermott and Waltman.

[brocks]

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

He inherited a 9-win team from a regime that went to the NCAA tourney ONCE in TEN years and LOST the only game it played there. In his fourth year, this guy with zero experience is in the Sweet 16 and competitive in a top-six conference. God only knows where he'll have BU in another four. :braves: :valley:

[MoValley John]

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

I think it's too early to judge Les, I think he's probably a pretty darn good coach. But if you compare his situation to what Altman and Turgeon inherited at their respective school's, you would either expect Altman and Turgeon to still be building foundations for thier programs, which they are not, or that Bradley would have a few conference rings, which they haven't. Once again, the numbers don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story.

[DawgieStyle]

Did you mean to write "the worst facilities in the Valley"? There is a reason that a $100 million renovation for the athletic facilities is starting in May. The local high schools had better places than BU. It's one of the reasons why BU didn't get many good coaching canidates 5 years ago.

yah, but you get to play in carver arena, that place is pretty cool, and it is part of your facilities.

[BradleyBrave]

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

Great facilities? HA! BU's facilities weren't DIII or high school worthy, let alone DI basketball worthy. Give me a break.

[shockball]

I can't speak for TurFin.....but my guess is that he was advocating just the opposite....that Les walked into a much better situation than Altman, Turgeon, Davis, McDermott and Waltman.


I can't believe that DawgieStyle missed the point that was being made.

[Bradleyfan]

hope you aren't advocating Les walked into a bad situation at Bradley. It's not like the cupboard was bare when he took over, he had some talent. Also, as always with Bradley, there was great facilities, and huge alumni support as well. For a new coach, I'd say Les walked into a pretty good atmosphere to succeed sooner than he did.

I keep reading your posts, and you seem to keep getting hung up on a theory that BU underachieved during his first three seasons. So what? He finally turned the corner last year in a very tough conference. Yes, sixth place is nothing to ride home about, but the fact is, it was good enough for an at-large bid with help from their Valley tourney run.

Whether his assistants get more of the credit for the coaching end of things or not, Les I think has learned quite a lot on the job, and has the makings of an excellent coach.

Tomorrow night's game at Tennessee Tech will tell us more about where Bradley is headed this year, but I believe it will be in a direction much better than a lot of people were predicting.

:braves: :valley: