Why doesn't anyone ever call out Ahearn?

[smacktalkermsu]

For anyone who is surprised by his perfomance tonight.......It is not really uncommon......most of the time he at least scores a few but he's been known to lay EGGS in big games.....

Why doesn't anyone ever call him out on this.......When Blake has a bad game it all of the sudden becomes Barry Hinson's fault........I still think Barry is a sucky coach, but Blake looked like a sucky player tonight.

[douglasdmb]

It's the home-town jitters. He SUCKS when he comes home to play in the Kiel/Savvis/whatever center.

Last two games played in St. Louis...

1) vs. UNI (MVC tourney)
0-5 from field, two points on free throws

2) @ SLU
0-4 from field, zero points (one missed free throw)

[Ricky Del Rio]

Well, I have not exactly called him out, but I have seen Ahearn play quite a few times and I have commented on his play.

He is the kind of shooter, with whom you do not want to play horse. He is a very fine shooter, when he is free in space and there is not a lot of tension going on.

He cannot create his own shot very well and it seems to me, he is not a clutch shooter. He does not shoot well under duress. If the opposing team keeps a hand in his face, he struggles. If the game is tight, he struggles.

It has been well chronicled on this board and much to the dismay of some Bar fans that Ahearn cannot play a lick of defense. I might not say he is a poor defender, but he is less than average.

In past years, Coach Hinson has had him on the bench at crunch time, when good defense was imperative.

[gosmsgo]

What are you going to "call him out on..."

That is stupid. He is a 20 year old kid who plays his hardest in return for a basketball scholarship. He is not a millionaire who gets paid to make 3 pointers.

give him a break.

[NCAABound]

He is the kind of shooter, with whom you do not want to play horse. He is a very fine shooter, when he is free in space and there is not a lot of tension going on.

He cannot create his own shot very well and it seems to me, he is not a clutch shooter. He does not shoot well under duress. If the opposing team keeps a hand in his face, he struggles. If the game is tight, he struggles.

Sounds like one of our (WSU) starters...except the part about clutch shooter. We've all got players similar to this.

[tgcshock]

Sounds like one of our (WSU) starters...except the part about clutch shooter. We've all got players similar to this.

The problem is that Ahearn is in an unfair position. The Bears need him to take them on his back in big games and produce a win. If they can get him open looks it is quite possible for him to do this. But if Ahearn has to create his own shot all night and make up for other people being shut down, it is very difficult. I think anyone in the Valley would love to have Ahearn as their #2 guy who can keep a defense honest with his shooting. But to ask him to be the star seems like asking him to be something he is not.

WSU does have these players. It is what I consider Ogirri to be. But they also have players in Cousinard and Wilson who can be asked to win a game when other things aren't going well.

[rjl]

Sounds like one of our (WSU) starters...except the part about clutch shooter. We've all got players similar to this.

So, those times I've seen take a step-back three point shot over multiple defenders was a... dream?

Dude, I don't know if Sean banged your girlfriend or what, but your hardon for unsensically talking smack on him is getting a little stale.

[tgcshock]

So, those times I've seen take a step-back three point shot over multiple defenders was a... dream?

Dude, I don't know if Sean banged your girlfriend or what, but your hardon for unsensically talking smack on him is getting a little stale.

Truth is though (that in spite of the quick release) Sean is better when playing inside the offense rather than trying to create his own shot. (That is no slam on Sean it is just a fact). I love Sean and am glad we have him. I would love Ahearn if he were on our team and playing a similar role. I am not sure that it brings out the best in either of them to ask that they take over a game when the defense is keying on them. It is not disrepect to any player to say that understanding your role and staying within makes you better. Unfortunately for Ahearn, MSU may need him to do things that are outside of his role. WSU does not need the same from Sean.

[rjl]

Truth is though (that in spite of the quick release) Sean is better when playing inside the offense rather than trying to create his own shot. (That is no slam on Sean it is just a fact). I love Sean and am glad we have him. I would love Ahearn if he were on our team and playing a similar role. I am not sure that it brings out the best in either of them to ask that they take over a game when the defense is keying on them. It is not disrepect to any player to say that understanding your role and staying within makes you better. Unfortunately for Ahearn, MSU may need him to do things that are outside of his role. WSU does not need the same from Sean.

The difference is, though, that I've seen Sean create his own shot before and knock it home over the outstretched hands of two defenders.

The first of many examples we witnessed of this was his Freshman year when he almost singlehandedly got us back into the Vanderbilt game with a barrage of 3's.

I'm not saying we should never criticise a player, but at least have it be logical and factual.

[tgcshock]

The difference is, though, that I've seen Sean create his own shot before and knock it home over the outstretched hands of two defenders.

The first of many examples we witnessed of this was his Freshman year when he almost singlehandedly got us back into the Vanderbilt game with a barrage of 3's.

I'm not saying we should never criticise a player, but at least have it be logical and factual.

Yes, we have seen Sean get in a zone and do this as all great shooters are capable of on a given night. Are you arguing that if Sean were asked to carry the team by creating his own shot night after night you would be comfortable with him doing this? (You think he should have just decided to win the LSU game by taking on an excellent defender who was basically guarding him 1-1?). Don't want to hijack this thread with a Ogirri discussion but I think it is relevant because Ahearn is being asked to do more than he should while Sean is not. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't trade Sean for Blake because Sean is capable of being a much better defender but I do think Blake may be getting undeserved criticism.

[Nyghtewynd]

If you go 0-fer in a one-point loss as the team's leading scorer, you deserve all the criticism you get. And I bet he'd say the same thing.

[NCAABound]

So, those times I've seen take a step-back three point shot over multiple defenders was a... dream?

Dude, I don't know if Sean banged your girlfriend or what, but your hardon for unsensically talking smack on him is getting a little stale.

Good one. He can't be banging my girlfriend because he never drives to the hole. Bada bing.

I don't know where you think I'm always talking smack on Sean. Talking smack would be saying he sucks, etc. I've never said such a thing. He's a much better all around player than Ahearn, but I'm glad he has a much better supporting cast than Ahearn to help him.

Get a f-ing clue rjl. Just because somebody critiques your beloved SO - you get your panties in a wad.

[ShockBand]

He can't be banging my girlfriend because he never drives to the hole.

I gotta write that one down...

:rotflmao:

[Chairman of the Boards]

Best post so far this week...
:banana:

[ShockBand]

#1 in the innuendo "poll" this week...

[rjl]

Good one. He can't be banging my girlfriend because he never drives to the hole. Bada bing.

I don't know where you think I'm always talking smack on Sean. Talking smack would be saying he sucks, etc. I've never said such a thing. He's a much better all around player than Ahearn, but I'm glad he has a much better supporting cast than Ahearn to help him.

Get a f-ing clue rjl. Just because somebody critiques your beloved SO - you get your panties in a wad.

Whatever, dude.

You were going over the top criticising him on shockernet (and in the process revealing that you know little about the type of basketball a player like Sean is supposed to play) starting a whole thread about how you don't think he's good, and then again throwing little innuendos into this thread that had nothing to do with him. The latter of which completely contradicts your assertion that you don't go out of your way to disparage him.

I asked if he banged your girlfriend because none of the logic or reasons you ever give in your critical-of-Sean posts even hold water, leading one to assume there's some other underlying reason why you dislike him.

He's not "my boy". I've never even met the guy. But little remarks like yours drive me crazy because they are completely unfounded and without any real insight to what role Sean plays or what he's expected to do.

So, NCAAboud. There's your clue. Post something critical of him that actually includes some facts and basketball knowledge, and you've got yourself a conversation. Otherwise, you're just a insipid hater.

[rjl]

Yes, we have seen Sean get in a zone and do this as all great shooters are capable of on a given night. Are you arguing that if Sean were asked to carry the team by creating his own shot night after night you would be comfortable with him doing this? (You think he should have just decided to win the LSU game by taking on an excellent defender who was basically guarding him 1-1?). Don't want to hijack this thread with a Ogirri discussion but I think it is relevant because Ahearn is being asked to do more than he should while Sean is not. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't trade Sean for Blake because Sean is capable of being a much better defender but I do think Blake may be getting undeserved criticism.

You're taking the extreme of my argument and using that as the basis for you to argue against. Sorry, but your straw man argument doesn't work.

No, I don't think he should be relied to carry the team every night. I don't think any player should, on any team.

But what I DO think is that he's quite capable of creating his own shots and driving to the basket when need be (but how often do you want the 42% 3pt. shooter driving the lane vs. shooting the 3, pulling one or more defenders out beyond the arc in the process?) and that's all I've ever said.

[tgcshock]

You're taking the extreme of my argument and using that as the basis for you to argue against. Sorry, but your straw man argument doesn't work.

No, I don't think he should be relied to carry the team every night. I don't think any player should, on any team.

But what I DO think is that he's quite capable of creating his own shots and driving to the basket when need be (but how often do you want the 42% 3pt. shooter driving the lane vs. shooting the 3, pulling one or more defenders out beyond the arc in the process?) and that's all I've ever said.

That may be all you intended to say but it is hardly all you ever said. The quote was "The first of many examples we witnessed of this was his Freshman year when he almost singlehandedly got us back into the Vanderbilt game with a barrage of 3's" I read "many examples" of "singlehandly" getting us back into games somewhat differently than the claim you just made.

[rjl]

That may be all you intended to say but it is hardly all you ever said. The quote was "The first of many examples we witnessed of this was his Freshman year when he almost singlehandedly got us back into the Vanderbilt game with a barrage of 3's" I read "many examples" of "singlehandly" getting us back into games somewhat differently than the claim you just made.

Man, what is so hard for some people to understand?

The idea was put out there that Sean is incapable of creating anything for himself. I gave an example that proved that notion was untrue. An example of an occurence where he created a whole series of shots for himself that got us back into the game. It's all right there in the post you quoted, tgc.

Then, my argument was made out to be that I said Sean could carry the team all the time, every game. I said I never made such a claim, and saying such was the classic straw man argument.

Is that argument progression really too difficult to digest?

[NCAABound]

You were going over the top criticising him on shockernet (and in the process revealing that you know little about the type of basketball a player like Sean is supposed to play) starting a whole thread about how you don't think he's good

Ok goon - here's my original post on SN.

I'm not usually one to post anything negative, but I was pretty disappointed in SO's performance against Wyoming, and his progress this year.

He doesn't do enough to get himself open shots. He just stands around the 3-point line. I see alot of scorers working their ***** off trying to get open looks. He seems lethargic (sp?) and slow at times. I felt it was almost like playing 4 against 5 at times.

SO has the potential to be a huge factor this year, and especially next year when we'll need him to step up more. I'd like to see a little more "want" out of him.

Sorry...I guess these week gaps between games just has me thinking too much! But am I way off base here?

I really don't think it is "over the top". Where do I say he's not good? I was just talking about my observations/opinions. Just because I don't drink a gallon of WSU kool-aid each and every night before bed doesn't mean I don't love my Shox. I've probably forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever learn.

[NCAABound]

Oh - and I apologize for "hijacking" this thread. I really wasn't trying to. I didn't put a name in my original post because that discussion should be on SN....not here. My intent was just to say we all have players similar to Ahearn....3-point specialists that tend to disappear certain games.

[tgcshock]

Man, what is so hard for some people to understand?

The idea was put out there that Sean is incapable of creating anything for himself. I gave an example that proved that notion was untrue. An example of an occurence where he created a whole series of shots for himself that got us back into the game. It's all right there in the post you quoted, tgc.

Then, my argument was made out to be that I said Sean could carry the team all the time, every game. I said I never made such a claim, and saying such was the classic straw man argument.

Is that argument progression really too difficult to digest?

I read your claims about Sean and his role as part of a larger discussion about whether Ahearn was living up to his role and what that role should be. (This is after all the central idea of the thread). Looking back at the thread I am willing to admit that your point was probably only in response to one specific poster and not to the entire thread of argument. Sorry if I misread you.

[rjl]

I really don't think it is "over the top". Where do I say he's not good? I was just talking about my observations/opinions. Just because I don't drink a gallon of WSU kool-aid each and every night before bed doesn't mean I don't love my Shox. I've probably forgotten more about basketball than you'll ever learn.

Really?

You know alot about basketball?

Because you would think that in at least one of your subsequent posts you made in the thread you just quoted you would have demonstrated it, or at least learned something from the subsequent posts other SNers made explaining how SO is pretty much fulfilling his role on the team in the system he's playing in before you started this stink here.

So, it's not over the top to disparage Sean every chance you get? Like, say, when you did in a thread about Ahearn? Interesting.

Keep forgetting things about basketball, though.

[rjl]

I read your claims about Sean and his role as part of a larger discussion about whether Ahearn was living up to his role and what that role should be. (This is after all the central idea of the thread). Looking back at the thread I am willing to admit that your point was probably only in response to one specific poster and not to the entire thread of argument. Sorry if I misread you.

Ah, I understand.

No, the thread got off track (I'm assuming most MSU fans don't mind, though) and became about people creating shots for themselves vs. having to be wide open like a game of horse.

[tgcshock]

Oh - and I apologize for "hijacking" this thread. I really wasn't trying to. I didn't put a name in my original post because that discussion should be on SN....not here. My intent was just to say we all have players similar to Ahearn....3-point specialists that tend to disappear certain games.

That is exactly how I read the context of your original statement. But I do see in retrospect how rjl might have read it differently. I think we might have been arguing past each other.

[NCAABound]

Thanks tgc. I was beginning to wonder about myself. :doh:

[rjl]

Thanks tgc. I was beginning to wonder about myself. :doh:

Hehe... It's a pointless debate in the grand scheme of things, but a thread I figured most MSU fans didn't mind us hijacking.... except that us posting here ensures it stays on top of the page.

[redbirdtim]

I bet you Barry is going to have a meeting with Ahearn and discuss this game.

[Canevision]

I bet you Barry is going to have a meeting with Ahearn and discuss this game.

I'm sure he'll discuss the game with the whole team. They choked it at the end, plain and simple. (Poor coaching didn't help but that's for another thread)

It simply cannot be argued that Ahearn didn't show up last night, and must get tougher to be the player he can be in conference.

[dab212s]

I saw a few games last year when the bears offense was struggling, and Ahearn hadnt been scoring/taking many shots during the game... and when the game got tight toward the end of the game, Ahearn started driving and creating his own shots, drawing fouls a lot of the time and making the basket a lot of the time... he kept the bears in the game.
That being said, I think he just needs to be more aggressive offensively when the other team is playing tough D or the rest of the bears isnt shooting well. He is pretty good at drawing fouls, and the freethrow line is how the Bears pull away from teams a lot.

[SubGod22]

I've never been overly impressed with Ahearn.

[smsandmsuson]

I'm sure he'll discuss the game with the whole team. They choked it at the end, plain and simple. (Poor coaching didn't help but that's for another thread)

It simply cannot be argued that Ahearn didn't show up last night, and must get tougher to be the player he can be in conference.

They only choke it because that was his plan...if he doesnt tell them to sit and run the clock and they continue playing, even for just two more mintues like they had been since the 16 minute mark in the first half, they would have won plain and simple...yes its their responsiblity to put the ball in the hoop, but it makes it harder when you are only left with a few seconds each time on the shot clock to do so because of what the coach says....

[Canevision]

They only choke it because that was his plan...if he doesnt tell them to sit and run the clock and they continue playing, even for just two more mintues like they had been since the 16 minute mark in the first half, they would have won plain and simple...yes its their responsiblity to put the ball in the hoop, but it makes it harder when you are only left with a few seconds each time on the shot clock to do so because of what the coach says....

I must be the only one who saw I said poor coaching was part of it...

[NoBSU]

I must be the only one who saw I said poor coaching was part of it...
No but saying that they choked it at the end doesn't tell the whole story. They choked it for that last 9 minutes. The current roster does not play well in a slow-down ball control set. Been that way for a couple of years.

Ahearn has a unique fan appeal. He could survive several games like this without criticism. MSU fans would mostly criticize Barry's use of him.

[Canevision]

The thread is about Ahearn, who deserves his large share of the blame.

Coaching, is for another thread.