Posting Guideline #17...

[kabullseye]

...now we all know how Dostoyevsky must have felt. Exiled to TrashTalk (Siberia).

[Aargh]

Did you read the whole guideline? I'm thinking of this part:

If you're looking for an internet pulpit, you are free to start your own website.

[kabullseye]

Wake me up when you have somewhat of a retort. Find me a thread without trashtalk and I will give you a dollar. And since I'm keeping my dollar, the censorship becomes somewhat subjective. zzzzzzz.....zzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzz......zzzzzzz

[DawgieStyle]

Wake me up when you have somewhat of a retort. Find me a thread without trashtalk and I will give you a dollar. And since I'm keeping my dollar, the censorship becomes somewhat subjective. zzzzzzz.....zzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzz......zzzzzzz

I thought Cold was annoying, your worse.

[kabullseye]

I thought Cold was annoying, your worse.

zzzzzz.....zzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzz

[DawgieStyle]

zzzzzz.....zzzzzzzz......zzzzzzzzz

I like how this guy was no where to be found until they beat Wichita and SIU. Where have you been the rest of the time while UNI has played water boy for the big men of this league? Keep talking young one, keep talking. You still have to come to SIU to play. If you don't think Karma's a @#$@#, ask Wichita fans about it. Keep talking.......

when wichita went down, most people were pretty reserved, at least their fans had earned their stripes on here over the last several months.....

we won't be so kind to you, you seem to be a band wagon fan, showing up just now that they've won a few games........

when UNI loses, and believe me, they will, I assure you your beat down will come, assuming you actually show up after a loss....

yah, im calling you out, don't be a pansy and run and hide when UNI loses, show your happy butt on this board and take it like a man.

[kabullseye]

I like how this guy was no where to be found until they beat Wichita and SIU. Where have you been the rest of the time while UNI has played water boy for the big men of this league? Keep talking young one, keep talking. You still have to come to SIU to play. If you don't think Karma's a @#$@#, ask Wichita fans about it. Keep talking.......

when wichita went down, most people were pretty reserved, at least their fans had earned their stripes on here over the last several months.....

we won't be so kind to you, you seem to be a band wagon fan, showing up just now that they've won a few games........

when UNI loses, and believe me, they will, I assure you your beat down will come, assuming you actually show up after a loss....

yah, im calling you out, don't be a pansy and run and hide when UNI loses, show your happy butt on this board and take it like a man.

While your insight, for the lack of a better word lacks "insight"; the fact of the matter is that showing up prior to January is a waste of time. All of the pre-league softball games that are played do not generate a great deal of capacity to effectively quantify the quality of one's record.

The problem you might wish to otherwise consider is this; the Panthers graduate 2 starters and had the top recruiting class in the Valley last Fall. So you might say our future has some potential. But, be that as it may, I will look you up next time we lose.

And yes, the Panthers still have to travel to SIU. Of course, if Falker fails to break a sweat (like he did on Saturday) you might not be looking me up either.

The broader question for you, Dawg, might be; beyond the lame excuse that the Salukis were tired from having had to dispense with Drake (0-4) on Thursday, why didn't the get off the bus on Saturday?

Oh, and so as not to get into a tit for tat discussion, UNI never got off the bus at Chicago-Loyola either.

[Divergence]

I remember a UNI team starting the league 4-1 last year. They then finished regular season 7-6 (losing 4 of 5).

Meanwhile WSU started 2-2 and finished 12-2. It's a long season.

[Brave2001]

The problem you might wish to otherwise consider is this; the Panthers graduate 2 starters and had the top recruiting class in the Valley last Fall.

Top recruiting class last fall? What? :lol: :lol: :lol:

PER RIVALS.COM

* = # of stars

2006 UNI:
1 - **
2007 UNI:
1 - **
1 - ***

2006 WSU
2 - ***
2007 WSU
4 - **

2006 SIU
1 - **
2007 SIU
2 - **
1 - ***

2006 Creighton
3 - ***
2007 Creighton
1 - **
1 - ***
1 - ****

2006 Bradley
1 - ***
2007 Bradley
1 - **
4 - ***

2006 MSU
1 - ***
2007 MSU
3 - **

2006 Drake
2007 Drake
2 - **
1 - ***

2006 IlSU
1 - ***
2007 IlSU
1 - **

2006 InSU
2007 InSU
5 - **

2006 EU
1 - **
2007 InSU
3 - **


Based on that Id rank the recruiting classes as

1 Creighton
2 Bradley
3 WSU
4 InSU
5 SIU
6 MSU
7 UNI
8 EU
9 Drake
10 IlSU


Granted this all on paper, stars are a little over rated and not always accurate, and some of these players may not pan out or even show up, but its the best info I could find fairly quickly. And its acutal DATA, not some BS made up opinion. This doesn't even include the non star rated players, which I'm sure some schools got some pretty good finds (UNI could be one of them, but not the only one).

UNI recruiting isnt anwhere near the top of the league. Do some research.

[Ferocious Cat]

A more accurate statement would be: UNI had possibly their strongest recruiting class ever.
Hopefully the depth of this year's team allows UNI to avoid the slide of last year. Every game is a battle, so it's possible to lose any night.

I think the Rivals star ranking system is more of a general opinion. Wouldn't DATA be more like an exam score? Or do they take a players stats and combine it with physical attributes? Could a kid who is 6ft, avg 30pts/game, but has a vertical of 6 inches and has no handle, receive 2 stars?

[Brave2001]

A more accurate statement would be: UNI had possibly their strongest recruiting class ever.
Hopefully the depth of this year's team allows UNI to avoid the slide of last year. Every game is a battle, so it's possible to lose any night.

I think the Rivals star ranking system is more of a general opinion. Wouldn't DATA be more like an exam score? Or do they take a players stats and combine it with physical attributes? Could a kid who is 6ft, avg 30pts/game, but has a vertical of 6 inches and has no handle, receive 2 stars?

You are correct.

Data maybe was the wrong word, but it was something I could look up, be verified, and was done by an independent group of people, who look at all recruits available (and subsequently compare each of them against each other), and they do it for a living.

So yes its an opinion, but its the same opinion across the board for all recruits, making it possible to compare the results. It wasnt like I was trying to compare the star rating of rivals vs scouts (two different sources with 2 different sets of criteria).

Its better than the opinion that I can give (which would be highly biased and uniformed because I have not the ability nor the inclination to try and scout alot of recruits)....I would say the same could be said about most posters on this board.

I KNOW the star system is flawed, but its a good as you are gonna get when it comes to comparing recruiting classes objectively as possible.

[kabullseye]

Top recruiting class last fall? What? :lol: :lol: :lol:

PER RIVALS.COM

* = # of stars

2006 UNI:
1 - **
2007 UNI:
1 - **
1 - ***

2006 WSU
2 - ***
2007 WSU
4 - **

2006 SIU
1 - **
2007 SIU
2 - **
1 - ***

2006 Creighton
3 - ***
2007 Creighton
1 - **
1 - ***
1 - ****

2006 Bradley
1 - ***
2007 Bradley
1 - **
4 - ***

2006 MSU
1 - ***
2007 MSU
3 - **

2006 Drake
2007 Drake
2 - **
1 - ***

2006 IlSU
1 - ***
2007 IlSU
1 - **

2006 InSU
2007 InSU
5 - **

2006 EU
1 - **
2007 InSU
3 - **


Based on that Id rank the recruiting classes as

1 Creighton
2 Bradley
3 WSU
4 InSU
5 SIU
6 MSU
7 UNI
8 EU
9 Drake
10 IlSU


Granted this all on paper, stars are a little over rated and not always accurate, and some of these players may not pan out or even show up, but its the best info I could find fairly quickly. And its acutal DATA, not some BS made up opinion. This doesn't even include the non star rated players, which I'm sure some schools got some pretty good finds (UNI could be one of them, but not the only one).

UNI recruiting isnt anwhere near the top of the league. Do some research.

Research, shmesearch. Who has freshmen making a contribution and gaining valued playing time? Next time don't wast so much time, garner your own opinion from what YOU see. Thanks for shopping.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Research, shmesearch. Who has freshmen making a contribution and gaining valued playing time? Next time don't wast so much time, garner your own opinion from what YOU see. Thanks for shopping.

Brave 2001 may be on to something - you do seem a little clueless.

Isacc Miles is a freshman and starts at Creighton. I believe IlSU starts two freshmen (Richardson and Osiris). Evansville starts Holmstrom and Stinson. there are probably others as well. But your right, who has freshmen making a contribution....:doh:

[DawgieStyle]

Research, shmesearch. Who has freshmen making a contribution and gaining valued playing time? Next time don't wast so much time, garner your own opinion from what YOU see. Thanks for shopping.

this is gonna be fun ....... braves2001 vs. kabullseye...im gonna laugh my butt off at the end of this beat down.

[ShockerPrez]

Maybe WSU should start playing their freshman instead of redshirting them all.....

Well, I take it back. Gal Mekel plays, he's been doing okay. Time will tell on WSU's frosh class of this year.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

I can say this:

The Shox were in on and really wanted Adam Koch (UNI freshman) and after watching a couple of their games and seeing the game here in person, I can see why. I know that Mark was really high on him and wanted him badly. He looks really nice so far.

[Brave2001]

Research, shmesearch. Who has freshmen making a contribution and gaining valued playing time? Next time don't wast so much time, garner your own opinion from what YOU see. Thanks for shopping.

Arent you the one that brought up how good UNI's recruiting class was, (the same recruits who will be/are freshman)? You'll have to refresh my memory. If freshman aren't imporatant, why did you bring up your supposed recruting advantage in relation to next year and the year after that. Again you'll have to refresh my memory. Which one is it: Freshman aren't important or our recruiting is really good?
So onto....

What "I" see. Well I fully admitted I don't have time to track down all of BU's recruits and watch them play, let alone every other valley recruit so that I can make a fair and objective statement that school X has the best recruiting class, thats why I relied on rivals for that information, not to mention they are far better judge of talent and basketball ability than I ever could be.

Since you stated that UNI's recruiting class is the best that must mean you have "SEEN" UNI's recruits and all of the other recruits the other valley schools have recruited so that you can make an unbiased objective statement that UNI's recruiting class for last fall is the best.

Tell you what...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you can give Star ratings of your own to every valley recruit for 2006 and 2007 and justifications for each star, I'll let you stand by your claim that UNI has the best recruiting class. We'll ignore the fact that the paid professionals are a far better judge of talent and athletic ability, but as long as you are reviewing all the players, the same criteria will be used for all players, makeing the results somewhat comparable.

This should be pretty easy for you. You've obviously "garnered your own opinion" from what you've seen....otherwise you couldn't have possibly have made that statement...unless of course you were pulling it out of your :innocent:

I've got a feeling hell will freeze over before he actually does this....but we will see....

And I wasn't wasting my time. I like to actually be informed when I speak. Uniformed people, well they just look stupid.

Thanks for Shopping :banghead:

[MSNSaluki]

I can say this:

The Shox were in on and really wanted Adam Koch (UNI freshman) and after watching a couple of their games and seeing the game here in person, I can see why. I know that Mark was really high on him and wanted him badly. He looks really nice so far.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS!
You can't show civility on the Trash Talk board.
Now, take it back!:lol:

[Brave2001]

Research, shmesearch....."What you see" (also known as opinion)....that reminded me of something....oh yeah:

Truthiness: claims to know something intuitively, instinctively, or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts.

I can alway see a weak argument when the first thing a poster does is to dismiss any actual information in dealing with said issue....why hell its always better to shoot from the hip and just go by what I see....

I'm a damn expert in everything...I've seen how a plane flys....I think I'll head by Lowes on the way home, pick up some supplies, and build me an airplane.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS!
You can't show civility on the Trash Talk board.
Now, take it back!:lol:

I'm actually trying to be the first to get a thread moved from the trash talk board to the regular basketball board. :clap:

[DawgieStyle]

Research, shmesearch....."What you see" (also known as opinion)....that reminded me of something....oh yeah:

Truthiness: claims to know something intuitively, instinctively, or "from the gut" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or actual facts.

I can alway see a weak argument when the first thing a poster does is to dismiss any actual information in dealing with said issue....why hell its always better to shoot from the hip and just go by what I see....

get him..

[kabullseye]

I can say this:

The Shox were in on and really wanted Adam Koch (UNI freshman) and after watching a couple of their games and seeing the game here in person, I can see why. I know that Mark was really high on him and wanted him badly. He looks really nice so far.

You Go, Mike.

I am officially placing you on my list of posters who think before they type.

[kabullseye]

Arent you the one that brought up how good UNI's recruiting class was, (the same recruits who will be/are freshman)? You'll have to refresh my memory. If freshman aren't imporatant, why did you bring up your supposed recruting advantage in relation to next year and the year after that. Again you'll have to refresh my memory. Which one is it: Freshman aren't important or our recruiting is really good?
So onto....

What "I" see. Well I fully admitted I don't have time to track down all of BU's recruits and watch them play, let alone every other valley recruit so that I can make a fair and objective statement that school X has the best recruiting class, thats why I relied on rivals for that information, not to mention they are far better judge of talent and basketball ability than I ever could be.

Since you stated that UNI's recruiting class is the best that must mean you have "SEEN" UNI's recruits and all of the other recruits the other valley schools have recruited so that you can make an unbiased objective statement that UNI's recruiting class for last fall is the best.

Tell you what...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. If you can give Star ratings of your own to every valley recruit for 2006 and 2007 and justifications for each star, I'll let you stand by your claim that UNI has the best recruiting class. We'll ignore the fact that the paid professionals are a far better judge of talent and athletic ability, but as long as you are reviewing all the players, the same criteria will be used for all players, makeing the results somewhat comparable.

This should be pretty easy for you. You've obviously "garnered your own opinion" from what you've seen....otherwise you couldn't have possibly have made that statement...unless of course you were pulling it out of your :innocent:

I've got a feeling hell will freeze over before he actually does this....but we will see....

And I wasn't wasting my time. I like to actually be informed when I speak. Uniformed people, well they just look stupid.

Thanks for Shopping :banghead:

OK, '01. Careful now, and I will go slow. This may be a revelation to you, but around these parts there exists such a thing as a ............boxscore. Look at the boxscore, identify the freshman (ideally in a victory), and then pose this question to yourself; "Did this guy have a positive impact on the outcome of the game, and has he in fact improved since we saw him last?"

Focus, '01 on the following terms from the above referenced paragraph: revelation, boxscore, ideally, victory, positive, impact, outcome, and improved.

In effect, '01, you draft Brady Quinn and I'll take Jamarcus Russell.

Thanks, again for shopping.

[WSUbballer]

Thanks, again for shopping.

Is that another Gary Rima line?

Is that youuu Garyy...?

[Brave2001]

OK, '01. Careful now, and I will go slow. This may be a revelation to you, but around these parts there exists such a thing as a ............boxscore. Look at the boxscore, identify the freshman (ideally in a victory), and then pose this question to yourself; "Did this guy have a positive impact on the outcome of the game, and has he in fact improved since we saw him last?"

Focus, '01 on the following terms from the above referenced paragraph: revelation, boxscore, ideally, victory, positive, impact, outcome, and improved.

In effect, '01, you draft Brady Quinn and I'll take Jamarcus Russell.

Thanks, again for shopping.

Hell is still about 100 degrees.

Still waiting for that proof of yours of exactly how UNI's recruiting class is best in valley.

Suggesting that I would draft Brady Quinn over Jamarcus Russel is a nice "Straw Man Argument"...wait Ill help you with that one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#rhetorical_use

Switch topics, throw out red herrings, build straw men, use ad hominem, whatever it takes for you to avoid the central argument.

By the way since when did box score tell you everything about a player, doesn't mention how well of a defensive player they are, surely doesn't mention a players potential. Exactly how does a box score for a valley game tell me anything about the incoming recruits? Why only "ideally" in a victory, I'd sure want to know if the player was a contributing factor to the loss? If he plays 40 mins and goes 0 across the stat line...he's pretty useless, freshman or not. Using your techniques for evaluating a freshman player sure doesn't sound very effective.

So from your statement I can derive that you haven't "seen" all the recruits from 06 or 07 for all the valley teams...you've only looked at the box scores?

Well blow me over.....I guess UNI must have the best recruiting class in the valley the box score proves it...I guess you really don't have to "see" the players.

You said that UNI had the best recruiting class in the valley. I provided a counter argument with at least some info to support my argument (you might not agree with that info, but at least its there to discuss). The burden of proof is on you. This is called Debate. To say "just because" is equivalent to arguing with a 2 year old, I think we are above that.

[Brave2001]

Another thing I thought of:

What about freshmen who play a position dominated by 3 or 4 seniors/juniors, they don't see a lot playing time, so are they bad just because they don't play alot? Bradley is loaded with guards and plays a 4 guard system, 1 freshmen guard sees 2 min, the other 15 min a game, our other freshman Forward avg's 6 min. The rest are doled out to the upper classmen. Don't know about you but I don't think I can make a judgment on how good they will be based on that limited playing time they get, but I'll just look at the box score.

[Brave2001]

Actually if I was looking at just the box score I would draft Brady Quinn, I believe he has more TD's and Yards, a slightly lower completion percentage though, and less INTs.

But I have seen both play. I'd draft Russel.

Now I'm confused:

You state that my logic would have me choose Brady Quinn.

Using your logic of Box Scores, you'd pick Brady Quinn.

On the one hand you want me to "see" the players, thus you have me picking Russel.

Which one is it? I think you just talked yourself into drafting both at the same time, but I'm not sure.

[kabullseye]

Another thing I thought of:

What about freshmen who play a position dominated by 3 or 4 seniors/juniors, they don't see a lot playing time, so are they bad just because they don't play alot? Bradley is loaded with guards and plays a 4 guard system, 1 freshmen guard sees 2 min, the other 15 min a game, our other freshman Forward avg's 6 min. The rest are doled out to the upper classmen. Don't know about you but I don't think I can make a judgment on how good they will be based on that limited playing time they get, but I'll just look at the box score.

Again, let me slow this down for you; halftime and the Panthers and Redbirds are tied at 25. Leading scorers at the half: Adam Koch (Freshman) and Jordan Egelseder (Freshman). Now, should the Cats pull this game out (down 4 right now), one could surmise that on a team building toward bigger things, that the Freshmen made a contribution.

And, back to my original contention; the future looks relatively bright when only 2 starters graduate this year. No other anticipated contender will be able to say the same (SIU, WSU, MSU, and CU are loaded with veteran players)

In the event however, the Cats should fall; we could readdress the "building toward bigger things" aspect.

Giddy-up.

[Brave2001]

Again, let me slow this down for you; halftime and the Panthers and Redbirds are tied at 25. Leading scorers at the half: Adam Koch (Freshman) and Jordan Egelseder (Freshman). Now, should the Cats pull this game out (down 4 right now), one could surmise that on a team building toward bigger things, that the Freshmen made a contribution.

And, back to my original contention; the future looks relatively bright when only 2 starters graduate this year. No other anticipated contender will be able to say the same (SIU, WSU, MSU, and CU are loaded with veteran players)

In the event however, the Cats should fall; we could readdress the "building toward bigger things" aspect.

Giddy-up.

Only took me 3 posts to drag that out of you. I don't know other teams rosters very well, I looked on Rivals and posted my opinion based on the best info I could get. I also wanted to include the 2007 recruits.

All I was wanting was for you to back up your argument of UNI having a good recruiting class. Koch and Egelseder sound like very good players.

I would argue that BU is in far better shape for the next couple of years with the pick ups of Jeremy Fears and Dearon Williams (Wiscy Transfer). Both are supposed to be very good and both are JRs next year. I know we aren't a contender this year, but with them, and our freshmen recruits (we gain 2 6' 10" players...yeah! for an inside presence again)...we are looking very strong. I have feeling in 2 years Bradley is going to be an absolute monster....I hope.

And Creightons got that 4 star recruit that will be a Soph in 2 years.....man is that gonna be interesting.

[kabullseye]

Actually if I was looking at just the box score I would draft Brady Quinn, I believe he has more TD's and Yards, a slightly lower completion percentage though, and less INTs.

But I have seen both play. I'd draft Russel.

Now I'm confused:

You state that my logic would have me choose Brady Quinn.

Using your logic of Box Scores, you'd pick Brady Quinn.

On the one hand you want me to "see" the players, thus you have me picking Russel.

Which one is it? I think you just talked yourself into drafting both at the same time, but I'm not sure.

No, '01, that isn't it. You draft the guy with the most "stars" remember? I draft the guy who shows up in the boxscore at the next level. Please connect the dots, please.

And now, I'm no longer going to thank you for shopping.

[kabullseye]

Only took me 3 posts to drag that out of you. I don't know other teams rosters very well, I looked on Rivals and posted my opinion based on the best info I could get. I also wanted to include the 2007 recruits.

All I was wanting was for you to back up your argument of UNI having a good recruiting class. Koch and Egelseder sound like very good players.

I would argue that BU is in far better shape for the next couple of years with the pick ups of Jeremy Fears and Dearon Williams (Wiscy Transfer). Both are supposed to be very good and both are JRs next year. I know we aren't a contender this year, but with them, and our freshmen recruits (we gain 2 6' 10" players...yeah! for an inside presence again)...we are looking very strong. I have feeling in 2 years Bradley is going to be an absolute monster....I hope.

And Creightons got that 4 star recruit that will be a Soph in 2 years.....man is that gonna be interesting.

'01, I have invented a new stat just for me and you. My creation, I'll let you do the math.

We'll call it the YPI: Youth Percentage Index.

Run a weighted average of minutes played by which classmen; where a Freshmean is a 1, Sophomore a 2, Junior a 3, and Senior a 4. Valley games only. Teams with low YPI's who sit in the upper half of the Valley might count on a brighter 07-08 (effectively winning games while getting younger guys experience on the D1 court).

[btisu22]

Brave 2001 may be on to something - you do seem a little clueless.

Isacc Miles is a freshman and starts at Creighton. I believe IlSU starts two freshmen (Richardson and Osiris). Evansville starts Holmstrom and Stinson. there are probably others as well. But your right, who has freshmen making a contribution....:doh:
Actually Indiana State, not Evansville, starts Holmstrom and Stinson and has Marshall come in off the bench for good minutes.
:sycamores:
I may be wrong here, but isn't Richardson a Juco transfer...May be wrong on this one.