is 1 million dollars too much for Gregg Marshall?

[JohnDorian]

why or why not?

[ColdShockin']

IMO — no.

Given the late date, that's the price of doing business.

Marshall looks like the next-best thing to Turgeon in terms of age, experience and charisma.

The Sutton kid fit that profile, too, and certainly would have been cheaper. But, with Sutton out, Schaus spent the money to try and keep the program moving forward without a hitch.

It's a good day ..... well ... you know.

[JohnDorian]

I hope at least Denzel comes here

[ShockerEngr]

from the sounds of the newer reports, he'll be closer to 600-800k.

cbs is now saying that we doubled his salaried, down from three times

[my opinion]I think there may be clauses that can push him to 1 mil a year, such as tourney appearances and such[/my opinion]

[MSNSaluki]

from the sounds of the newer reports, he'll be closer to 600-800k.

cbs is now saying that we doubled his salaried, down from three times

[my opinion]I think there may be clauses that can push him to 1 mil a year, such as tourney appearances and such[/my opinion]

$1 million would be too much for Gregg Marshall but ShockerEngr's numbers make more sense.
If Marshall is as good as we think he is, he'll be at $1 million soon enough.

[ShockerEngr]

JS confirmed that the terms are 750,000 with performance incentives.....no specific contract terms yet though....so those are 'in principal' numbers

[jaypharmalum]

JS confirmed that the terms are 750,000 with performance incentives.....no specific contract terms yet though....so those are 'in principal' numbers

So can we finally disregard the "1 million dollars from WSU - we are the trendsetters of the MVC" discussion and threads?

[Aegyptus]

Thank God. Even $750,000 is too much, but at least it is reasonable given the market conditions, etc.

[martymoose]

Has a Valley school ever hired a new coach for $750,000 or more?

[Shox21]

Has a Valley school ever hired a new coach for $750,000 or more?

Come on Marty. We didn't do anything spectacular. We were caught in a bind. You have to pay market value. If that's what the market demands (because he's the coach you want and you're willing to pay for it) then that's what you have to pay. CU would have been placed in the same situation if Altman had not done an aboutface. It's a great day just to have this behind us and I think we got a really good coach hired. Hope we can keep him more than two years.

[user1]

why or why not?

I think I know the answer....but I will pose this response....

Just how tough was Gregg Marshall's (and Winthrop's) competition this past season?
---answer---their strength of schedule was rated #270.
They play in the Big South, the 26th ranked conference.
Only three of their 28 wins came against teams with RPI's better than 150,
and 19 of them came against teams with RPIs of 250 or higher.
Four more of their wins were against non-D-I teams.
So a whopping 23 of their wins came from the absolute bottom dwellers in D-I and D-II.

How about 2005-2006?
---answer---they were 21-7 but against a SOS that was 194.
and in 2004-2005 their SOS was 291.
So regardless of their record, their W-L performance is a little skeptical because of the woefully weak schedule.

Yeah, but doesn't he get them into the postseason?
---answer---sure, but again, mostly because every other team in the Big South is so bad, that Winthrop basically gets in every year by default.
How come they don't tell you his record in the NCAA tournament?
It's because up 'til this season he had never won a game in the postseason.
this year's win makes him 1-7.

He might turn out to be a good coach, but he is likely to have trouble recruiting the midwest, and you have to wonder why even tho he has become a media darling and gets hyped for every open job, that nobody had scarfed him up yet.....?

[user1]

nm

[shockerfan13]

I think I know the answer....but I will pose this response....

Just how tough was Gregg Marshall's (and Winthrop's) competition this past season?
---answer---their strength of schedule was rated #270.
They play in the Big South, the 26th ranked conference.
Only three of their 28 wins came against teams with RPI's better than 150,
and 19 of them came against teams with RPIs of 250 or higher.
Four more of their wins were against non-D-I teams.
So a whopping 23 of their wins came from the absolute bottom dwellers in D-I and D-II.

How about 2005-2006?
---answer---they were 21-7 but against a SOS that was 194.
and in 2004-2005 their SOS was 291.
So regardless of their record, their W-L performance is a little skeptical because of the woefully weak schedule.

Yeah, but doesn't he get them into the postseason?
---answer---sure, but again, mostly because every other team in the Big South is so bad, that Winthrop basically gets in every year by default.
How come they don't tell you his record in the NCAA tournament?
It's because up 'til this season he had never won a game in the postseason.
this year's win makes him 1-7.

He might turn out to be a good coach, but he is likely to have trouble recruiting the midwest, and you have to wonder why even tho he has become a media darling and gets hyped for every open job, that nobody had scarfed him up yet.....?

I wouldn't put too much weight on his post season success. THIS IS NOT A SHOT AT ALTMAN OR CREIGHTON...but Altman's record in the tourney isn't much better and he had better seeding and look at what he gets paid. He's a winner and I think he'll win in the Valley also.

[iSASO]

You might recognize the echo here, but this is what you need to know:

Prior to Marshall's arrival, Winthrop won 7 games for the entire season.

In January-February of his first season, Winthrop won 12 straight games.

I don't care what conference you are in, if you pull that off in your first season..what more do you need to know?

[WSUcourtSTORMER]

Apparantly 1 million is too much for him because he didnt get 1mill. He got $750,000+incentives. Is he worth this? The answer in my mind is definately yes. Anyone who thinks this is anything but an upgrade at coach here is probably delusional. As a testament to how bad of a coach Turg was at the end of games lets run down some of our meltdowns.

2002-2003 MVC semifinal game, squandered a 10 pt lead and could only get a guarded 25ft jumper from Randy Burns off a timeout. He clanked it we lose by 1.

2003-2004 Fridge Holman headband blowup
Randy Burns held ball vs Ind St

2004-2005 Jacobsen buzzer dagger that put us into the NIT
Vandy enuf said


2006-2007 Too many blown games down the stretch to count.

Im sure i am forgetting a lot because i am just remembering these off the top of my head, but i think we all knew Turgeon was a horrible in game coach, and we always excused it as "he is young and still developing as a coach". He never changed D's until it was too late. And did anyone else want to throw batteries at him(not literally of course) at the end of the year as he yelled MOTION MOTION every time down the floor for 20 straight games as we went 7-13...

But i digress, clearly Marshall is a gamer. Outgunned he has managed to win some games against strong opponents and also keep far inferior teams in games against top seeds in the big dance. Without a miracle last year Winthrop beats Tennessee.

This in my mind is a huge upgrade.

[rjl]

As it turns out, Marshall's contract is probably identical to what Turgeon's was.

When the facts were made public, it was reported that Turgeon's contract "could" reach a million a year, but that probably depends on winning a few games in the NCAA Tournament.

Is Marshall worth it? Yes, and even from just a simple business standpoint alone.

If WSU was to fall off again by taking a risk on a 300K/year calibre coach that didn't pay off (good odds), they would certainly have lost far more than 500K/year in revenue from tickets and merchandise sales.

[jaypharmalum]

As a testament to how bad of a coach Turg was at the end of games lets run down some of our meltdowns.

2002-2003 MVC semifinal game, squandered a 10 pt lead and could only get a guarded 25ft jumper from Randy Burns off a timeout. He clanked it we lose by 1.

2003-2004 Fridge Holman headband blowup
Randy Burns held ball vs Ind St

2004-2005 Jacobsen buzzer dagger that put us into the NIT
Vandy enuf said


2006-2007 Too many blown games down the stretch to count.

Im sure i am forgetting a lot because i am just remembering these off the top of my head, but i think we all knew Turgeon was a horrible in game coach,

This in my mind is a huge upgrade.

Why don't I remember Cold or anyone mentioning how terrible a coach Turgeon was when he lived in Wichita? Apparently everyone there knew that making the NCAA tournament only once during your career doesn't make you a great coach, but Shox fans never let VT know how they really felt until now. In fact, I would swear people thought he was a (gulp) good coach a week ago. At least the truth is finally out.

[Cdizzle]

Thats funny, because you're "great", "top of the league" coach has just as many Sweet 16's as this horrible coach of whom you speak. Funny how people always seem to ignore that.

[DUBulldog]

Thats funny, because you're "great", "top of the league" coach has just as many Sweet 16's as this horrible coach of whom you speak. Funny how people always seem to ignore that.

I'm pretty sure you missed his point entirely. He wasn't comparing Turgeon to Altman or Marshall to Altman.....he was merely pointing out how odd it is that the some of WSU fans that talked for the last several years about what a great coach Turgeon is are now badmouthing him. He wasn't the one calling Turgeon a horrible coach.

[JVShocker]

I am not the only poster from SN who criticized Turgeon in his tenure, but sometimes I feel like I was the most vocal (and I'm a moderator). But I could easily bring up (at least) a half dozen (if not more) instances where I criticized him. There have been plenty of people who knocked *this* and *that* of Turgeon. Why wouldn't he play zone against teams that liked to drive the basket because they couldn't shoot from the outside? How many (and this number is in the hundreds) criticized him for playing too many height-challenged players and taking taller players out of the game because "they went small and we had to match them." How many times was he criticized for keeping too short of a leash on players? Probably a couple dozen such posters who felt that he treated Gal Mekel that way alone this past year. How many of us have knocked him because he couldn't beat SIU and Creighton with any regularity (and to a lesser extent, UNI?) How many knocked on his recruiting ability this past year? Just because all the experts on ValleyTalk didn't see it or read it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. This forum has a search feature if you're really interested in doing the research - the information is there, but me, I've got better things to do. #1 is looking forward to a coach in Wichita to help us kick your butts. See you on the hardwood. :innocent: :shockers:

[rjl]

List of other recent "Cinderella" or "Sleeper" Sweet 16 coaches:

Barry Collier
Homer Drew
Stan Heath
Jerry Green
Jerry Dunn
Rod Barnes
Craig Esherick
Charlie Coles
Bob Bender
Gale Catlett
Jim Les
...
Mark Turgeon

This is a true list of greatness.

Not to stoke the flames, but Altman would love to be on that list somewhere.

Rebuilding a program that was ****ty as Wichita State was when Turgeon took over takes a lot of time. Some of those earlier years' successes are equally commendable as the S16 run was, although not on a "national" level.

However, you'd be a fool to think that WSU has no chance of being there again in the next few years, and that Turgeon has no chance of being there at TAMU this very next year.

That said, there were only a very few Shocker fans who never had a complaint about Turgeon. Of course, that doesn't jive well with the weak-arse Valleytalk method of debate: assuming all fans from a school are one entity who's constituents each have the same thoughts, and when one poster comments he's acting as a emissary for all of them.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I am not the only poster from SN who criticized Turgeon in his tenure, but sometimes I feel like I was the most vocal (and I'm a moderator). But I could easily bring up (at least) a half dozen (if not more) instances where I criticized him. There have been plenty of people who knocked *this* and *that* of Turgeon. Why wouldn't he play zone against teams that liked to drive the basket because they couldn't shoot from the outside? How many (and this number is in the hundreds) criticized him for playing too many height-challenged players and taking taller players out of the game because "they went small and we had to match them." How many times was he criticized for keeping too short of a leash on players? Probably a couple dozen such posters who felt that he treated Gal Mekel that way alone this past year. How many of us have knocked him because he couldn't beat SIU and Creighton with any regularity (and to a lesser extent, UNI?) How many knocked on his recruiting ability this past year? Just because all the experts on ValleyTalk didn't see it or read it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. This forum has a search feature if you're really interested in doing the research - the information is there, but me, I've got better things to do. #1 is looking forward to a coach in Wichita to help us kick your butts. See you on the hardwood. :innocent: :shockers:


Serious question: I'd like to know if Shocker fans think it is just some sort of coincidence that 2 of the last 3 years the team imploded due to chemistry issues, or do they believe that Turg's coaching methods caused these issues?

[rjl]

Serious question: I'd like to know if Shocker fans think it is just some sort of coincidence that 2 of the last 3 years the team imploded due to chemistry issues, or do they believe that Turg's coaching methods caused these issues?

Three years ago, I wouldn't blame chemistry issues. If that were the case, we wouldn't have played nearly as well as we did in the NIT. And believe me, we played VERY WELL that year in that tournament. It was almost as if we were watching a different team than the one that rounded out the year.

I'd chalk the slide that year more to senior frustration (for whatever reason, our seniors didn't develop from their Junior years, and in one case may have even regressed) which hurt us down the stretch, growing pains from becoming a winning team from a team that lost alot, and just plain old bad luck.

Depending on what rumors you want to believe, our collapse last year may or may not be coach related. Only a select few know for sure. I'm not even sure if "chemistry" issues were the problem, either, as there was no real evidence of players not liking one another on the court. Major frustration, yes. Hate or dislike for one another, no.

Where I WILL fault Turgeon for last year's collapse is in the lack of key reserves due to a few weak recruiting years. Not so much that we needed them in gametime (with the exception of the following sentence), but we desperately needed them in practice. Even so, many have opined that, had freshman JT Durley not injured himself in the preseason, last year may have turned out quite differently.

[iSASO]

It was not all due to chemistry issues and it was not all due to coaching methods. You're drastically over-simplifying the situation in order to assign blame on a person or a couple of people. It's just not that simple.

[DoubleJayAlum]

It was not all due to chemistry issues and it was not all due to coaching methods. You're drastically over-simplifying the situation in order to assign blame on a person or a couple of people. It's just not that simple.

Gee, what a surprise that one can't get a straight answer out of this noted trouble-maker. I guess we'll just chalk your answer up to one hell of a coincidence.

BTW - If I wanted to make people look bad, I would bring up the fact that in Turgeon's entire tenure at WSU, he made one whole trip to the NCAA tourney.

You may well be the most miserable person on the face of this earth. Starting "woe is me" polls, feel sorry for me topics and perpetually whining so loud that even comes across on message boards. Good work!

[Divergence]

Serious question: I'd like to know if Shocker fans think it is just some sort of coincidence that 2 of the last 3 years the team imploded due to chemistry issues, or do they believe that Turg's coaching methods caused these issues?
Shocker fans have been critical of Turgeon, though generally it has been kept in our own house (Shockernet). Biggest complaints:

a. Seemed to get outcoached at times (most chalked it up to learning curve). Call it bad luck or bad coaching, but WSU under his reign had a uncanny knack of getting beat on a last second shot.

b. He was stubborn. He seemed sometime wanting to jam a square peg through a round hole, even if the the other team was giving him the undersized round peg.

c. There was at least a perception of that he struggled devoloping players - seemed players peaked out by their sophmore year. Maybe it was the talent he had to work with, I don't know.

d. Had a "whiner" demeanor.

The issues with the 3 years is somewhat complex because there are several different core issues involved in each one:

Year 1: Turgeon refused to play better talent at times and stick with veteran players. There seemed to be some "attitudes" and selfishness.

Year 2: Turgeon kicked off two players (1 scholarship, 1 walkon) who actions were detrimental to the team and school. Everbody seemed to accept their role.

Year 3: You had a series of injuries. You had a program at all levels seem to revel in the spotlight too much and maybe not worked as hard. There also seemed to be some attitudes and selfishness by certain individuals.

But while these things are leveled at him (what coach doesn't have his warts), he did turn around a program that was a loser and changed expectations and put WSU back on the map.

I am excited about Marshall. After listenening to his coaching philosophy I think he's the right fit for the conference. He seems to want to play a defense that I would call a hybrid CU/SIU defense with a uptempo offense.

Plus I hear that Marshall is very personable and can be very dramatic on the sidelines.

[Ricky Del Rio]

why or why not?

The market is the market.

Try to bull the market and you will be handed your head.