Interesting Katz Article on Scheduling

[DoubleJayAlum]

In the article which talks a lot about scheduling, several interesting things are noted:

1. The Big East, like the Big ten, is going to an 18 game conference schedule.

2. Capel of Oklahoma, and formerly of VCU, is one former midmajor coach that has agreed to put his former mid-major school on his BCS schedule (starting two seasons from now). I respect Capel for taking this step and giving VCU the home and home series. This is something Webber has yet to do and we'll see about Turgeon (don't hold your breath...)

3. Loud mouth, whiny Boeheim says that he will continue to schedule the non-con the same way as they did this past year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2841531

[Aegyptus]

That really sucks that the Big East is going to an 18 game schedule too. We own them. If I am not mistaken we were 6-0 against them last year.

How far away are we from the point where there are 1) a few cup cake games, 2) pre-season tourneys, 3) a made for TV event like the Big 10-ACC Challenge, 4) then the conference schedule? With out of conference games only within a tourney/TV format or cup cake games?

Maybe the Valley needs to try to get a made for TV event going with the other 6-10 conferences like the Mountain West and A-10. It would be the Continental Challenge as those conferences cover the East, Midwest and West (I guess you could throw on C-USA for the south). This might even help define the second tier of conferences as the Continental Leagues or something like that.

We need to get more creative with scheduling because the BCS schools are simply not going to play us home and homes if they have a choice. It is not going to happen.

[Little Eddie]

In the article which talks a lot about scheduling, several interesting things are noted:

1. The Big East, like the Big ten, is going to an 18 game conference schedule.

2. Capel of Oklahoma, and formerly of VCU, is one former midmajor coach that has agreed to put his former mid-major school on his BCS schedule (starting two seasons from now). I respect Capel for taking this step and giving VCU the home and home series. This is something Webber has yet to do and we'll see about Turgeon (don't hold your breath...)

3. Loud mouth, whiny Boeheim says that he will continue to schedule the non-con the same way as they did this past year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=katz_andy&id=2841531

Nice, maybe if the Orangemen beat up on teams by 50 instead of 45 during their non-con they can get that big dance invite next season.

[Aegyptus]

Continental Challenge:

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. If you could get MWC, A-10 & C-USA on board for a made for TV challenge event (Fox Sports seems like a likely partner) you could really have something. I just quickly counted the number of states that would be at play in these conferences and it is 28, and DC. So more than 1/2 of the country (including all the big states) would be affected.

If you could play a modified round-robin format, where a team from every conference plays 1 team from each other (only the top 9 teams from the previous season because the MWC only has 9 teams) you could be guarenteed 3 games against at least mediocre competition. For the top teams of the leagues, you would get an RPI top 25 team most years to play against, so SIU-Memphis/BYU/Xavier this last year.

Other thoughts would be welcomed, but it seems like a cool idea to me and a great way to get publicity, get high RPI teams, and define a second tier of conferences.

Anyway, that is the kind of creativity we need right now in this scheduling environment. We need leadership from the Elgin on this.

[BearsCountry]

CSTV owns the rights to MWC, CUSA, and A10 tv.

[MSNSaluki]

The more games BCS schools play against each other mean fewer non-conference games they have to schedule, which means fewer opportunities for the Valleys of the world to improve their schedules.

It's about money.

The little guys get screwed again.

[rapala]

Hey guys what do you think of the new Big Ten network starting this fall. Will it affect the TV scheduling we get in the MVC. Or will it have a greater effect on ESPN scheduling.

[Khan4Cats]

Continental Challenge:

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. If you could get MWC, A-10 & C-USA on board for a made for TV challenge event (Fox Sports seems like a likely partner) you could really have something. I just quickly counted the number of states that would be at play in these conferences and it is 28, and DC. So more than 1/2 of the country (including all the big states) would be affected.

If you could play a modified round-robin format, where a team from every conference plays 1 team from each other (only the top 9 teams from the previous season because the MWC only has 9 teams) you could be guarenteed 3 games against at least mediocre competition. For the top teams of the leagues, you would get an RPI top 25 team most years to play against, so SIU-Memphis/BYU/Xavier this last year.

Other thoughts would be welcomed, but it seems like a cool idea to me and a great way to get publicity, get high RPI teams, and define a second tier of conferences.

Anyway, that is the kind of creativity we need right now in this scheduling environment. We need leadership from the Elgin on this.


I had floated an idea similar to this earlier this year and I agree its a type of creativity we need to come up with. Part of it is to get good competition, part of it is to say "screw you BcS", go ahead and schedule only creampuffs or other BcS.

I don't think C-USA, A-10 or even the MWC would be a part. they don't want a part of BB, so that is where we should look for cross-partnerships. The CAA, WAC, MAC, even the Horizon would be good to include as a kind of scheduling cartel. Everyone should be able to get quality opponents (for the most part) and be able to have home and home schedules. Just takes a little creativity.

[Aegyptus]

I had floated an idea similar to this earlier this year and I agree its a type of creativity we need to come up with. Part of it is to get good competition, part of it is to say "screw you BcS", go ahead and schedule only creampuffs or other BcS.

I don't think C-USA, A-10 or even the MWC would be a part. they don't want a part of BB, so that is where we should look for cross-partnerships. The CAA, WAC, MAC, even the Horizon would be good to include as a kind of scheduling cartel. Everyone should be able to get quality opponents (for the most part) and be able to have home and home schedules. Just takes a little creativity.

I would be a little concerned with the CAA, the MAC and the Horizon. If we only played the best teams from each, then that would be fine. But, those leagues are not deep enough to stay with the Valley and they are not considered very good leagues - middle of the pack at best. The fourth best team in the Valley is a tourney worthy team. The fourth best team in the MAC or Horizon is junk and will hurt our overall RPI. That is why we need to talk to better leagues like the A-10 and MWC. The WAC would be fine. They might be interested in a deal right away, but then you would lose the MWC possibility. Surely the MWC, WAC, A-10, C-USA are facing the same problems we are in scheduling. It does not have to be a formal thing, but maybe just an informal agreement among the conference commissioners to privilege the other conferences.

I don't know, but something has to be done. We cannot keep relying on the few pre-season tourneys.

Also, what is the thought on BracketBusters? It certainly helped SIU last year, but it probably hurt everyone else in the Valley (maybe it helped get Bradley that NIT bid). It seems that Valley teams have to play the best team from every other conference. For us to win all of those games is quite a feat. Maybe it is time to call it quits on Bracketbusters. The TV coverage is good, but it is almost an insult too. Since the 5th or 6th best team in the Valley has to play the best team from the WAC, and then we get hammered in the media for losing those games .... I think we have outgrown it.

[Ace Dad]

I would be a little concerned with the CAA, the MAC and the Horizon. If we only played the best teams from each, then that would be fine. But, those leagues are not deep enough to stay with the Valley and they are not considered very good leagues - middle of the pack at best. The fourth best team in the Valley is a tourney worthy team. The fourth best team in the MAC or Horizon is junk and will hurt our overall RPI.


Drink more of that MVC Kool-Aid. Put a lot of ice and sugar in it and continue to take a long, gulping drinks. Drink all the flavors--Saluki Red Strawberry, Creighton Blue Ice, Bradley Raspberry, Shocker Gold Melon, etc, etc. You sound like some BCS Bama' talking about the MVC 3-4 years ago. Not sure if you really, really understand the very minute margins that exist among conferences and within conferences.

[SubGod22]

I'm not sure any of those leagues are great top to bottom. I haven't looked into it though. But I'm very high on the CAA. If they could get the bottom half of the league to step up to the plate they'll be fine.

I'm not sure which teams are in the WAC and which are in the MWC. Very few of those teams excite me personally and most would look down upon us like Aeg does the CAA. They feel they're right up there with the BcS conferences.

I'm not a big fan of the MAC or Horizon. They haven't shown me a whole lot. But then again, I don't follow them all that closely.

CUSA still thinks they're big time. They don't suck but they took a major hit with the defections a couple of years ago. There would be some nice matchups there if they could accept the fact that they're Memphis and then everybody else. :grin:

We're better off just trying to find the best teams in all of these conferences and trying to set up home and homes. Go after the likes of Winthrop, Davidson, Nevada, Gonzaga, Air Force, ODU, Hofstra, VCU, George Mason, Drexel, Utah St and others of that nature. Although some of these schools may shy away for some reason or another. I'm not sure our schools are searching enough in this area for simple home and homes. Most of these schools complain about not getting home games against good competition like we do. You'd have to think most would be up for it.

[Beaker416]

Drink more of that MVC Kool-Aid. Put a lot of ice and sugar in it and continue to take a long, gulping drinks. Drink all the flavors--Saluki Red Strawberry, Creighton Blue Ice, Bradley Raspberry, Shocker Gold Melon, etc, etc. You sound like some BCS Bama' talking about the MVC 3-4 years ago. Not sure if you really, really understand the very minute margins that exist among conferences and within conferences.

Hey, where the heck is the UNI Grape?

[Aegyptus]

Man, I must be drunk on this Koolaid. For some reason I thought that the Valley was the #6 conference this year. Seemed like we were the #6 conference last year too. And the year before that the #8? Man, how long have I been drunk?

[Hein72]

It is not Valley Koolaid.

Here is the numbers for the last 2 teams in each confrence last season:

MVC:
138 Illinois St. MVC 14-16
139 Indiana St. MVC 12-18

MAC:
274 Ball St. MAC 9-22
301 Northern Illinois MAC 6-23

Horizon:
236 Wisconsin Milwaukee Horz 9-22
264 Cleveland St. Horz 7-21

CAA:
300 James Madison CAA 7-23
306 Delaware CAA 5-26

[jaypharmalum]

The ability of MVC teams to schedule decent home games in the OOC is getting more and more difficult. As discussed here ad nauseum, the Bracket Buster isn't going away as Elgin is a huge proponent and the contract has a number of years left.

I am happy with Creighton's schedule for 07-08, with Drexel, DePaul, St. Joes, Nebraska, and the trip to Las Vegas where we'll play BYU and UNC/ or Louisville. However, for the conference as a whole, it's going to be tough.

Oh by the way, I hope the NCAA sticks it to Boeheim and the Orange again for their scheduling and refusing to play on the road.

[goaces]

I think one way to perhaps to continue to improve the stature of the MVC is to look toward expansion with the right teams. I know that St. Louis University is taking a lot of heat for ridiculously alligning itself with the eastern based A-10. Maybe now they are ready to make the jump. Though the program is a little down right now, and I am not sure what it would take for them to leave there present conference, they would be a great addition to this league. Butler is the other school I would go after. Even though they are a basic lock to win the Horizon league in most years, I do know that many who follow the program would like to see the Bulldogs go to a better conference. You add these two schools you would see no less than 3 teams a year go to the NCAA, and probably no less than three to the NIT.

Let's face it, BCS teams are going to shy away from scheduling Valley teams, even if it means giving a two for one. But you add a SLU and Butler and you are looking at an even greater conference.

[SubGod22]

Butler seems to have no interest from what I've heard in the past and I don't think SLU would help the conference all that much.

[goaces]

Butler seems to have no interest from what I've heard in the past and I don't think SLU would help the conference all that much.

I appreciate your commets SubGod22 but I have to disagree. Saint Louis (headquarters of the MVC) offers the Valley great exposure and fan support in a major market. SLU has built a new arena and its followers desire to see MVC competition. If you ask Doug Elgin he would say that SLU and the Valley would be a perfect fit. The Bilikens, if the administration commits themselves to the program like they say they will, could be very very good. Concerning Butler, if you listen to the fans who write into the Indy Star, there is a push to get into a better league. Because of their success many believe (as do I) they if they want to continue to move up the ladder they will have to change conference affliations.

By the way, great luck to the Shockers this year (except against the aces). The Marshall hiring was a great move. WSU should not miss a beat.
:valley: :aces:

[DoubleJayAlum]

If the MVc were to ever expand, SLU and Butler provide something that most Valley schools lack - large metropolitan cities. Adding Indy and St Louis would certainly make the conference more marketable to TV networks interested in buying broadcasting rights.

The lack of Div 1 football at these schools also may serve to keep them in the conference instead of leaving like the Tulsas, et al.

[BearsCountry]

I wouldnt mind expansion but if its the right teams, now the question is if you add 2 you probally decrease to a 16 game schedule, but if you add 1 you go to a 20 game schedule more than likely.

[bcrawf]

UW-Milwaukee would be another great candidate. They have a more well rounded program than Butler. Good Volleyball and Women's Basketball. Remember that the Valley is not a Men's Basketball Only League...

[tennis08tarheels]

Add the following teams to the MVC:

Elon (EU)
Northern Iowa (NIU)
Southern Indiana (USI)
Universiti Malaysia Sabah (UMS)
Delaware (UD)
Cincinnati (UC)
Wisconsin-Superior (UWS)

:helpsmilie:

[goaces]

Tennis08, You can go back to bed now.:ermm: :sleeping:

[DoubleJayAlum]

UW-Milwaukee would be another great candidate. They have a more well rounded program than Butler. Good Volleyball and Women's Basketball. Remember that the Valley is not a Men's Basketball Only League...

Since men's basketball is the only sport that consistently is a revenue producer, I would think hoops is the prime consideration when evaluating future admittees to the MVC.

[goaces]

No doubt DoulbeJay. Nothing against UMW, but there is no way other Valley schools would want to share revenue with that particular institution.:no: :aces: :valley:

[Aegyptus]

UW-Milwaukee is a decent candidate. I also think we should consider U of Illinois - Chicago. With SLU, these are pretty good academic schools as well. I know that is not the main consideration, but it is a pretty nice bonus.

UIC is a HUGE school with a lot of alumni and the Chicago market and that school is BEGGING for relevance. A jump in conferences to a more recognizable conference may get the school some of the attention it wants where it is the 15th or so choice in that market.

[BearsCountry]

I would rather add NDSU and SDSU than any of the Horizon League schools.

[Aegyptus]

I would rather add NDSU and SDSU than any of the Horizon League schools.

I would actually not be THAT against this type of move for the long term. But, at the moment, clearly there are better schools than NDSU and SDSU.

The long term advantage, though, is notable. This would give us primary state schools and undisputed markets, albeit very small markets. I would wonder if NDSU and/or SDSU would ever be able to draw as well as a Butler or a St. Louis. Plus, then we could rename the Gateway back to the Missouri Valley Conference for football. So there are advantages, but not enough at the moment.

Since this thread was about scheduling, I don't think either of those would provide immediate relief for our scheduling and RPI concerns.

[jaypharmalum]

How about the MVC add no one? I think the conference is doing pretty well at the moment and I do not subscribe to the theories that "bigger is better" and that adding the St Louis television market does anything of real benefit for the MVC or member institutions.

[BearsCountry]

I would actually not be THAT against this type of move for the long term. But, at the moment, clearly there are better schools than NDSU and SDSU.

The long term advantage, though, is notable. This would give us primary state schools and undisputed markets, albeit very small markets. I would wonder if NDSU and/or SDSU would ever be able to draw as well as a Butler or a St. Louis. Plus, then we could rename the Gateway back to the Missouri Valley Conference for football. So there are advantages, but not enough at the moment.

Since this thread was about scheduling, I don't think either of those would provide immediate relief for our scheduling and RPI concerns.

I think long term would be the best bet for the Valley, bc I think football could be the thing that will make the decisions for a few of the Valley schools.

[goaces]

How about the MVC add no one? I think the conference is doing pretty well at the moment and I do not subscribe to the theories that "bigger is better" and that adding the St Louis television market does anything of real benefit for the MVC or member institutions.

Absolutley bigger is not better when it comes to expansion of the MVC. That is precisely why the league office has turned down a number of institutions who have applied for admitance. The Valley has stated more than once they are happy with the current universities that form this great league. BUT IT IS IN NO WAY A SECRET the interest Doug Elgin and the university presidents and ADs have in St. Louis University.
Talk about a no brainer, the Bilikens would be projected to average 10,000 people in a major market where the interest of the MVC is very high. Likewise, schools such as SIU and MSU would have a home game with an opponent that would bring more fans to there venues. Plus, if the tournament stays in St. Louis, you would likely have more sellouts. If you understand the situation at SLU, there basetball program could be a sleeping giant. All that is holding it up is how much the university wants to commit to it. When they did a few years ago when Charlie Spoonhouer was coaching them they were a top 35 team averaging 20,000 a game. That is exactly why the league is so keen on the Bilikens.
Incidently, I appoligize for those who were talking about the scheduling thing. Fact is though, the Valley is going to get fewer opportunites to play BCS schools. I believe:valley: :yes: one of the few ways to keep improving the league is expansion with the right schools.