Valley Mythbuster: Expansion

[Panthera Pardus]

Here's a thought for all of you who continue to spout that Butler, SLU, or even UIC or Loyola would make great additions into the Valley because of the market that they play in.

Horizon League:
(population of city in parentheses)
Butler: Indianapolis, IN (783,438)
Cleveland State: Cleveland, OH (478,403)
Detroit-Mercy: Detroit, MI (911,402)
Illinois-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Loyola-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Wisconsin-Green Bay: Green Bay, WI (101,467)
Wisconsin-Milwaukee: Milwaukee, WI (586,941)
Wright State: Dayton, OH (161, 696)
Youngstown State: Youngstown, OH (79,271)

Various prominent basketball programs in the US:

Duke: Durham, NC (198,376)
Kansas: Lawrence, KS (82,120)
Indiana: Bloomington, IN (70,642)
Gonzaga: Spokane, WA (196,624)
Connecticut: Storrs, CT (10,996)
Syracuse: Syrcause, NY (147,306)
Virginia Tech: Blacksburg, VA (39,130)

Okay. Draw your own conclusions here. I keep hearing about how it would be important for the Valley to expand into metropolitan markets. What about Wichita (354,865), Omaha (414,251), Des Moines (194,163), or Peoria (112,685)? It seems to me that what is far more important as far as conference expansion (if the Valley even NEEDS such an undertaking) is to examine schools that just simply strike a chord with you. Everyone is aware that St. Louis would be a good addition for this purpose: name recognition, located in the city that has the Valley headquarters, big-name coach. Fine. The fact that SLU is in a major metropolitan area is irrelevant. The Big Ten in all its splendor and glory has hubs in Iowa City, West Lafayette, Happy Valley, and Bloomington. The Big XII has stations in Lawrenece, Manhattan, Stillwater, Norman, Waco, Lubbock... you get the idea.

My point is this: THINK before you spout off what you believe is common knowledge: size doesn't always matter. It's how you use it.

[MoValley John]

Here's a thought for all of you who continue to spout that Butler, SLU, or even UIC or Loyola would make great additions into the Valley because of the market that they play in.

Horizon League:
(population of city in parentheses)
Butler: Indianapolis, IN (783,438)
Cleveland State: Cleveland, OH (478,403)
Detroit-Mercy: Detroit, MI (911,402)
Illinois-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Loyola-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Wisconsin-Green Bay: Green Bay, WI (101,467)
Wisconsin-Milwaukee: Milwaukee, WI (586,941)
Wright State: Dayton, OH (161, 696)
Youngstown State: Youngstown, OH (79,271)

Various prominent basketball programs in the US:

Duke: Durham, NC (198,376)
Kansas: Lawrence, KS (82,120)
Indiana: Bloomington, IN (70,642)
Gonzaga: Spokane, WA (196,624)
Connecticut: Storrs, CT (10,996)
Syracuse: Syrcause, NY (147,306)
Virginia Tech: Blacksburg, VA (39,130)

Okay. Draw your own conclusions here. I keep hearing about how it would be important for the Valley to expand into metropolitan markets. What about Wichita (354,865), Omaha (414,251), Des Moines (194,163), or Peoria (112,685)? It seems to me that what is far more important as far as conference expansion (if the Valley even NEEDS such an undertaking) is to examine schools that just simply strike a chord with you. Everyone is aware that St. Louis would be a good addition for this purpose: name recognition, located in the city that has the Valley headquarters, big-name coach. Fine. The fact that SLU is in a major metropolitan area is irrelevant. The Big Ten in all its splendor and glory has hubs in Iowa City, West Lafayette, Happy Valley, and Bloomington. The Big XII has stations in Lawrenece, Manhattan, Stillwater, Norman, Waco, Lubbock... you get the idea.

My point is this: THINK before you spout off what you believe is common knowledge: size doesn't always matter. It's how you use it.



Yeah, right. Women say that to make you feel better.

[C0|db|00ded]

Yeah, right. Women say that to make you feel better.

Exactly, size gives you more margin for error! :lol: :lol: :lol:


T


...:cool:

[BearsCountry]

Comparing Big 12 and Big 10 cities isnt the right to way their markets. Those schools are statewide teams that attract fans and viewers from the whole state.

[Awesome]

It's the Big 12, not Big XII.

[MSNSaluki]

Exactly, size gives you more margin for error! :lol: :lol: :lol:


T


...:cool:

:lol:

[troutangler]

It's the Big 12, not Big XII.

Why is that? They use the "XII" in some of their logos. In fact, I think their official logo is Roman numerals.

http://www.big12sports.com/

[Panthera Pardus]

Comparing Big 12 and Big 10 cities isnt the right to way their markets. Those schools are statewide teams that attract fans and viewers from the whole state.

This is my point exactly... it's about NAME RECOGNITION, not about market size. Again, teams like Duke, North Carolina, Va Tech, Indiana... they are all from smaller-sized markets but their name is what gives them the necessary recognition. The Valley should be concentrating on improving its existing products to make it more attractive to markets it already exists in, not trying saturate other markets just because there are larger ones.

[BearsCountry]

Why is that? They use the "XII" in some of their logos. In fact, I think their official logo is Roman numerals.

http://www.big12sports.com/

http://www.big12sports.com/aboutbig12/big12-aboutbig12.html

[troutangler]

http://www.big12sports.com/aboutbig12/big12-aboutbig12.html

Why in the hell is it in their logo? That may be the stupidest thing I've ever seen. They don't want Roman numerals to be used, but their logo at the top of their website is in Roman numerals?

[MoValley John]

http://www.big12sports.com/aboutbig12/big12-aboutbig12.html

So.

[SubGod22]

They also put the roman numerals on the court of thier conference tourny.

[MoValley John]

The way I understood the disclaimer was that it was intended for lazy media types. For example, if you are a hack journalist who does nothing more than copy and paste together pieces of press releases, please refer to the conference in it's proper form. As for the conference's marketing, imagry and logo, as well as how Joe six pack should perceive the conference, it's Big XII.

[Snapshot9]

Here's a thought for all of you who continue to spout that Butler, SLU, or even UIC or Loyola would make great additions into the Valley because of the market that they play in.

Horizon League:
(population of city in parentheses)
Butler: Indianapolis, IN (783,438)
Cleveland State: Cleveland, OH (478,403)
Detroit-Mercy: Detroit, MI (911,402)
Illinois-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Loyola-Chicago: Chicago, IL (2,886,251)
Wisconsin-Green Bay: Green Bay, WI (101,467)
Wisconsin-Milwaukee: Milwaukee, WI (586,941)
Wright State: Dayton, OH (161, 696)
Youngstown State: Youngstown, OH (79,271)

Various prominent basketball programs in the US:

Duke: Durham, NC (198,376)
Kansas: Lawrence, KS (82,120)
Indiana: Bloomington, IN (70,642)
Gonzaga: Spokane, WA (196,624)
Connecticut: Storrs, CT (10,996)
Syracuse: Syrcause, NY (147,306)
Virginia Tech: Blacksburg, VA (39,130)

Okay. Draw your own conclusions here. I keep hearing about how it would be important for the Valley to expand into metropolitan markets. What about Wichita (354,865), Omaha (414,251), Des Moines (194,163), or Peoria (112,685)? It seems to me that what is far more important as far as conference expansion (if the Valley even NEEDS such an undertaking) is to examine schools that just simply strike a chord with you. Everyone is aware that St. Louis would be a good addition for this purpose: name recognition, located in the city that has the Valley headquarters, big-name coach. Fine. The fact that SLU is in a major metropolitan area is irrelevant. The Big Ten in all its splendor and glory has hubs in Iowa City, West Lafayette, Happy Valley, and Bloomington. The Big XII has stations in Lawrenece, Manhattan, Stillwater, Norman, Waco, Lubbock... you get the idea.

My point is this: THINK before you spout off what you believe is common knowledge: size doesn't always matter. It's how you use it.


The last census had the metropolis area of Wichita at 476,000 (We don't need Missouri to to be big).

[DUBulldog]

The last census had the metropolis area of Wichita at 476,000 (We don't need Missouri to to be big).

The populations he gave were of the cities themselves, not their metro areas. Des Moines' metro area is a little over 500,000....the 194,163 figure is Des Moines proper.

[dogdays]

Plus IU is 40 minutes from Indy and the state land grant school. UCONN is close to a number of larger cities in Conn, its just that Storrs is a small community...those numbers are a bit misleading.

[MoValley John]

The last census had the metropolis area of Wichita at 476,000 (We don't need Missouri to to be big).

Metropolis? Isn't that where Superman lives?

[DUBulldog]

Metropolis? Isn't that where Superman lives?

Why, yes it is.....they even have a statue of him there.

http://staffweb.peoriaud.k12.az.us/Dede_Reichart/Superman%20Statue.jpg

[Coachtrey]

Metropolis? Isn't that where Superman lives?


i thought superman was dead:fear:

[LincolnJay]

Thanks, Dave... Always good to hear viewpoints.


Doug Elgin
Commissioner
Missouri Valley Conference
1818 Chouteau Avenue
St. Louis, Missouri 63103

office: 314-421-0339
direct: 314-244-2324
fax: 314-421-3505

-----Original Message-----
From: Me
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 10:35 AM
To: Doug Elgin
Subject: Input from a fan

I'm getting a little nervous over this expansion talk so here is a fan's
two cents:

- No expansion / 10 teams is PERFECT. If someone leaves, I agree
that St Louis is a nice fit.

- If St Louis is in the Valley, you MUST move the tournament
somewhere else. Giving someone a home advantage is totally out of step
with becoming a big time conference. KC or Chicago would be
neutral sites - ST LOUIS IS NOT A NEUTRAL SITE EVEN IF IT'S NOT SLU'S
HOME FLOOR.

Thanks for listening, Me

[BearsCountry]

Another thing city populations shouldnt be used either. Its tv market size that is what they look at.

[MoValley John]

Another thing city populations shouldnt be used either. Its tv market size that is what they look at.

So size DOES matter. Told you Panthera.

[goaces]

Concerning expansion, Doug Elgin is more than aware that there is much more to this subject than market size. That is exactly why teams such as UIC will have little oppourtunity to join the Valley. You have to have "the goods" to go along with it, and the Flames do not.

It is no secret of the Valley's interest of SLU. The commintment that the school's administration has recently made makes them an even hotter commodity. Even those who "belly ache" about the Bilikens joining the MVC, have to be impressed with with staggering dollars they are now putting on the table.

It is doubtful that Butler would join the MVC at this time. Barry Collier, the AD, has everything going well for his team and would probably be reluctant to make any changes. However, I do know that many of the Butler faithful realize that a change in conference affliation, at some point, may have to happen if they want to continue to improve the progam. Mutiple bids will not come easily in the Horizon League. And though Butler will always be no less than the number #3 team in Indy, interest and credibility, I belive, would happen if they made the jump. I cannot help but believe this would generate more fan support. They, SIU, and Gonzaga, have been the top three mid-majors since 2000.

Hard to imagine that if the MVC pickup up these two programs anything less that 3 teams minimum to the tournament each year. No less than a #7 conference RPI on a yearly basis. :valley: :clap: :bounceblue: :banana:

[SubGod22]

I agree that UIC doesn't bring the goods. But I don't think SLU does either. Again, expansion for expansions sake is dumb. If we aren't adding a team that can compete right away for a top half finish it isn't a good idea.

[kyyle23]

I would hope that Elgin wouldnt cave into expanding just because SLU's new coach says he wants to join the MVC. The purpose of expanding should be to improve the quality of the league, not to rescue another team from the quality(or lack thereof) of their own league. I say let SLU rot in the mess that they created for themselves. They thought that they were moving on up by joining the A-10, and didnt think it through.

Elgin no doubt has a plan for the MVC's growth, and if he had expansion in the plan, it shouldnt be instigated because of Majerus.

[DoubleJayAlum]

It is doubtful that Butler would join the MVC at this time. Barry Collier, the AD, has everything going well for his team and would probably be reluctant to make any changes. However, I do know that many of the Butler faithful realize that a change in conference affliation, at some point, may have to happen if they want to continue to improve the progam. Mutiple bids will not come easily in the Horizon League. And though Butler will always be no less than the number #3 team in Indy, interest and credibility, I belive, would happen if they made the jump. I cannot help but believe this would generate more fan support.

Barry Collier is not going to allow Butler to join the Valley. He is sick and tired of being owned by Creighton.

When it was announced Collier had been elected to the Butler hall of fame last summer, and that this election could lead him one step closer to resigning at Nebraska to become the AD at Butler, it was joke time in Omaha. Several Creighton fans wanted to elect Barry Collier to the Creighton hall-of-fame with the hopes that such an honor would keep him from leaving Lincoln. Creighton fans LOVE Barry Collier. :grin: The same thing can't be said for Nebraska fans.....