The Abyss

[dakyne]

I'm kinda worried--too much respect for SIU from CU fans.:innocent:

[Aargh]

If SIU wins the Valley again, they will be in an excellent position to hire a great up-and-coming coach to replace Lowery.

The recruiting class will likely fall apart.

Neither Turgeon or Altman has had the success Lowery has had.

Turgeon went S16 - then bust - and still got a $1.5 mill offer. Altman was a bust at KSU, never made a S16 and still got an offer that was about twice what he was making at CU.

SIU isn't immune to losing a coach. The best hope for SIU keeping Lowery is that Weber and Painter haven't been very successful at the next level.

[dogdays]

Aargh
Were you being sarcastic?
Weber has taken IL to the NCAA tournament each year he has been the coach at IL. He has made one sweet 16 appearance and one final four and championship game appearance in his 4 years in Champaign. The rap on him has been recruiting yet this week he got verbals from three outstanding players in IL that will give him a top 25 recruitng class for next year...and though I may be mistaken, I believe that Weber has won more games in the past four years than any other D1 coach...is that not success...
Painter...in his second year as head coach he took the Boilermakers to the NCAA tournament and played FLA tough till the very end..he already has a top 25 class lined up for this upcoming year.. ....you might want to rethink the statement about them not having much success.

[Ricky Del Rio]

If SIU wins the Valley again, they will be in an excellent position to hire a great up-and-coming coach to replace Lowery.

The recruiting class will likely fall apart.

Neither Turgeon or Altman has had the success Lowery has had.

Turgeon went S16 - then bust - and still got a $1.5 mill offer. Altman was a bust at KSU, never made a S16 and still got an offer that was about twice what he was making at CU.

SIU isn't immune to losing a coach. The best hope for SIU keeping Lowery is that Weber and Painter haven't been very successful at the next level.

I realize the universe has just about installed Coach Lowrey in the baskeball hall of fame. However, I am not quite convinced he is deserving of that status as yet.

I grant that he is a very fine defensive coach, but I question his abilities as a offensive coach.

He has enjoy success largely due to players, who were recruited by previous coaches. I am not sure he is a good recruiter. Since his 2008 class is ranked 15.5 and if the players are effective, then I will concede on the recruiting point.

I am not sure how many AD's will recruit coaches, who play ugly basketball. Fans want exciting offense. Fans do not want to watch paint dry and muggings. After all, fans' ticket purchases are the ultimate measure of their approval or disapproval of any given sporting performance.

This year, Coach Lowrey is on his own with respect to recruited players. It will be a good measure of his effectiveness as a coach.

Now, before you Doggies go crazy, I am not predicting anything. I am not criticizing. If it plays out like the Doggies have stated, then I will be the first in line to say, "Congratulations."

[MSNSaluki]

I realize the universe has just about installed Coach Lowrey in the baskeball hall of fame. However, I am not quite convinced he is deserving of that status as yet.

I grant that he is a very fine defensive coach, but I question his abilities as a offensive coach.

He has enjoy success largely due to players, who were recruited by previous coaches. I am not sure he is a good recruiter. Since his 2008 class is ranked 15.5 and if the players are effective, then I will concede on the recruiting point.

I am not sure how many AD's will recruit coaches, who play ugly basketball. Fans want exciting offense. Fans do not want to watch paint dry and muggings. After all, fans' ticket purchases are the ultimate measure of their approval or disapproval of any given sporting performance.

This year, Coach Lowrey is on his own with respect to recruited players. It will be a good measure of his effectiveness as a coach.

Now, before you Doggies go crazy, I am not predicting anything. I am not criticizing. If it plays out like the Doggies have stated, then I will be the first in line to say, "Congratulations."

Another fairly reasonable observation.
I can't argue much with it.

[WSUfan]

Another fairly reasonable observation.
I can't argue much with it.

:salukis::salukis::salukis::salukis::salukis:
:shockers::shockers::shockers::shockers::shockers:
:valley::valley::valley::valley::valley:

:lol:

[dakyne]

Can't agree with all of RDR's take. Fans want winning programs--how they win is secondary. There may be preferences for uptempo styles, but at the end of the day, fans, coaches and players want to win.

From that perspective, you're way off.

CLo tripled his salary not because he is an offensive genius. Season ticket sales aren't soaring due to the Salukis' offensive prowess. The common denominator is wins.

[iSASO]

Maybe complete buy-in from the fanbase will have been achieved when sellouts rule the schedule.

[MSNSaluki]

I'm pretty sure if Lowery was the second coming of Paul Westhead and SIU was averaging 115 points a night our attendance would be the same.

[Aargh]

Illinois final RPI under Weber and conference finish

2005 - 2 - B10 finish - 1st
2006 - 14 - B10 finish - 3rd
2007 - 29 - B10 finish - Tie for 4th-6th

Illinois fans do not see that as successful.

Where is Painter? I thought he was at Northwestern.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Illinois final RPI under Weber and conference finish

2005 - 2 - B10 finish - 1st
2006 - 14 - B10 finish - 3rd
2007 - 29 - B10 finish - Tie for 4th-6th

Illinois fans do not see that as successful.

Where is Painter? I thought he was at Northwestern.

Painter's at Purdue.

The Illini faithful are not really happy with Weber; that much is obvious to anyone who can read. I hope CLo doesn't go anywhere (especially now that CU is on a one game winning streak against him :grin:), but if he does leave, Weber may be available...

Pretty ironic.

[XSaluki]

Last week Weber pulled in 3 very good 09 recruits within 2 days. Now the fans seem to be changing their tune.

Once he gets the stigma of not being a recruiter off his back, I think he will get things rolling.

[dogdays]

Aargh
Illini fans are delusional..They they think they are Duke. They arent. Just because they arent necessarily happy with Weber doesnt mean he hasnt had success...as I said, they are a very wacky bunch.

Recruiting is what is frustating Illini Fans the most...the jury is out there but they had a huge week getting three top guards.

More importantly you left out one year of Bruce Webers tenure at IL(2004)

Here is the record
2004 24-6 1st
2005 32-1 1st
2006 25-6 tied 2nd
2007 22-11 tied 4th

thats an over all record of 103 -24 or an 81 percent winning percentage. Ave record 24.5-6

And he had 2 1st place finishes not one, one second(tied) place finish and one 4th(tied) ..

Four straight NCAA tournament bids
Two Big Ten championships
One sweet 16 as stated before
One Final Four as stated before
One National Championship Game Appearance (2nd place finish in the nation)

They may not be satisfied with that but with the exception of Duke, Carolina and maybe a couple of others every other school in the country would love to have that record in the past 4 years(two firsts and a second in three of the four years as IL coach in the Big Ten)...You are flat out wrong about Weber not having success, the record speaks for itself.

[Ricky Del Rio]

Can't agree with all of RDR's take. Fans want winning programs--how they win is secondary. There may be preferences for uptempo styles, but at the end of the day, fans, coaches and players want to win.

From that perspective, you're way off.

CLo tripled his salary not because he is an offensive genius. Season ticket sales aren't soaring due to the Salukis' offensive prowess. The common denominator is wins.

So, you are saying that offense does not sell tickets.

How many traffic signals are in Carbondale?

How many movie theaters?

[Fraydog]

So, you are saying that offense does not sell tickets.

How many traffic signals are in Carbondale?

How many movie theaters?

And just what does that have to do with the topic at hand?

If you're wondering, Carbondale has more traffic signals and movie theaters than most cities its size.

After all, how do you think we get all those people to come down to SIU (besides the obvious party school thing LOL)?

[Aegyptus]

Last week Weber pulled in 3 very good 09 recruits within 2 days. Now the fans seem to be changing their tune.

Once he gets the stigma of not being a recruiter off his back, I think he will get things rolling.

Right, but these good recruits are 2 years from playing and 4 years from playing well. He needs to win between that time and finish at least one of those years as 1st in the Big 10 with a top 3 seed. With the players they have, I just don't see that happening. Not with Michigan St., Ohio St., Indiana, Wisconsin and now probably improvement at places like Minnesota and Purdue. It is going to be difficult to finish in the top 3 of the Big 10, let alone win it. I just don't see Weber winning enough in the meantime while the better recruits come in.

I predict a 4th place finish this year with the pressure increasing and next year with the pressure at a boil, a 6th-7th place and the end of his tenure. I love Weber, but I am not sure he is cut out for the power conference schools. He is best at a mid-major or a lower-end BCS school, where the players he does have will buy into the system, be home at curfew, etc... Having kids that think they are NBA prospects just isn't working for him.

I hope I am wrong.

[dakyne]

RDR,

So, you are saying that offense does not sell tickets.

How many traffic signals are in Carbondale?

How many movie theaters?

Offense sells tickets, but winning sells much more, high-octane offense or not. SIU would not have increased season ticket sales by finishing 6th in the MVC--even if they scored 90 points per game. However, they are selling more tickets by going to the Sweet 16, even tho they were ranked 9th in the MVC in scoring offense. Your proof is in the numbers.

As for traffic signals and movie theatres in Carbondale, I don't know and it's not relevant to the topic at hand. Perhaps you're going senile.

[Divergence]

We're way too close to the season without having an "Abyss" thread.

SIU is generally named as the "entering the abyss" team. This year the argument can be made that the loss of Tatum will cause SIU to drop into the abyss.

For the last several years SIU's offense did seem to be Tatum handling the ball and dribbling a lot until he either took a shot or passed to someone who got open because of Tatum's movement.

WSU only lost Miller from their S16 team, but the offense ran through Miller. Without Miller, WSU took about 4 steps past the edge of the abyss. Unlike the cartoons, WSU plummeted and landed hard at the bottom of the cliff with a great Wiley Coyote impersonation.

It's possible SIU will miss Tatum about the same as WSU missed Miller. It's easier to replace a backcourt player than a frontcourt player, so maybe SIU can avoid dropping into the abyss.

What a prophetic post.

[Dawg_tired]

In light of SIU's recent decent in to the abyss, I have tried to think of something funny and uplifting to write. Sorry Salukies. There is no light at the end of the tunnel.:tv_horror::nopity::blowup:

[Ricky Del Rio]

Despite my reservations about Coach Lowrey's ability to recruit, it is quite stunning that the mighty has fallen like a rock.

The reason I have always questioned his ability to recruit is because I look at the players he has recruited and there is no there there.

The Prudential Rocks of the Doggie teams of recent years have been recruits by former coaches. Now all of those premium players are gone and the cupboard is damn near bare.

While Falker, Shaw and Mullins are decent players, they are not top drawer players like Tatum, Young, Brooks and Williams.

I love Jamaal Tatum. He is a high energy, high octane difference maker. He willed the Doggies to wins by his talent and relentless play. If there is a single word to describe Jamaal, it is relentless.

Since we have been reminded ad nauseum that next year's class is rated 13-1/2 or was it 14-1/2, perhaps this year will only be a temporary blip.

[MoValley John]

They were listed in the ESPN top 16-1/2 poll for recruits.

[WSUbballer]

There are 16 very smart and distinguished people on VT. And I am one of them.. :innocent::lol:

[MSNSaluki]

A man looks in the abyss, there is nothing staring back at him. At that moment he discovers his character. That keeps the man out of the abyss.

I stole that from "Wall Street."

[shockball]

"WSU only lost Miller from their S16 team, but the offense ran through Miller. Without Miller, WSU took about 4 steps past the edge of the abyss. Unlike the cartoons, WSU plummeted and landed hard at the bottom of the cliff with a great Wiley Coyote impersonation." Aargh.

Acme. A name you can trust. :valley:

[Aargh]

:salukis::shockers:

[DoubleJayAlum]

It is kinda funny that Creighton received the second most votes in the poll...

[Dawg_tired]

It is kinda funny that Creighton received the second most votes in the poll...

Three out of four is pretty good.

[WSUbballer]

It is kinda funny that Creighton received the second most votes in the poll...

The season's only a third of the way over, big guy.

[DoubleJayAlum]

The season's only a third of the way over, big guy.

I'll tell you what - why don't you put a little money where your significantly overused mouth is?

I'm willing to bet you that Creighton ends up above WSU in the final conference ratings. You name the wager; we could bet actual cash or if you are afraid of that, how about the loser doesn't post here for a period of time? Creighton actually has fewer returning starters than WSU has. CU also has more players new to the school all together than WSU does.

The ball is now in your court (and yes, I took you off the plonk list to see what smart @ss comment you put in this thread).

Man up or shut up...

[shockball]

I think the last time someone told someone else to "man up" it was Dawgie Style addressing Ace Dad.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Brave2001]

LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WSUbballer]

I'll tell you what - why don't you put a little money where your significantly overused mouth is?

I'm willing to bet you that Creighton ends up above WSU in the final conference ratings. You name the wager; we could bet actual cash or if you are afraid of that, how about the loser doesn't post here for a period of time? Creighton actually has fewer returning starters than WSU has. CU also has more players new to the school all together than WSU does.

The ball is now in your court (and yes, I took you off the plonk list to see what smart @ss comment you put in this thread).

Man up or shut up...

Whoa there skippy..

Who said I thought WSU was gonna finish ahead of CU? Show me where. Show me the money.

All I'm saying is the season's not even close to over so don't go counting your chickens before they're hatched yet.

Marshall is a good, young coach. But he's not good enough to just come right in and put together a 25 win season. Sorry if you think that's what I and WSU fans think are gonna happen.. because that is false.

Also, lose the attitude. If it's because it's your time of the month, then I apologize and understand.

[Bird]

Marshall is a good, young coach. But he's not good enough to just come right in and put together a 25 win season. Sorry if you think that's what I and WSU fans think are gonna happen.. because that is false.

All we heard for the past 4-5 years was how awesome of a coach Turg was and that he was the best coach in the Valley and WSU was the "Class of the Valley". Now, WSU fans are acting like Marshall took over a barren program void of any players. Which is it?

[JJClamdip]

WSU fans are acting like Marshall took over a barren program void of any players. Which is it?

Look at the players on the roster and you can tell why Turgeon took off.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Whoa there skippy..

Who said I thought WSU was gonna finish ahead of CU? Show me where. Show me the money.

Here you go - check out post number 30...

http://valleytalk.net/showthread.php?t=5123&highlight=preseason+predictions&page=2

The offered wager still stands...

[Dawg_tired]

I looked back at that thread and boy you guys were really good at predicting. Why haven't you won the lottery?

[WSUbballer]

All we heard for the past 4-5 years was how awesome of a coach Turg was and that he was the best coach in the Valley and WSU was the "Class of the Valley". Now, WSU fans are acting like Marshall took over a barren program void of any players. Which is it?

Depends who you are talking to. If you wanna just take one person's views and say they're everybody's views then that's called generalizing. Not smart to do. Considering we graduated 3 senior starters, 1 ran off because the coach left, and a couple of key recruits were influenced to leave, I'd say we were given option #2.

[WSUbballer]

Here you go - check out post number 30...

http://valleytalk.net/showthread.php?t=5123&highlight=preseason+predictions&page=2

The offered wager still stands...

LOL.. you mean the one where I start off saying.. "I haven't looked into anything yet, but here's just a test run.."

That's some serious digging.

It just doesn't look good making wagers 1/3 of the way through the season, no matter what side of the coin you were on. If I woulda asked you for the bet at the beginning of the year, would you have taken it? Knowing you, you probably would because WSU is inferior to everything CU.

[DoubleJayAlum]

LOL.. you mean the one where I start off saying.. "I haven't looked into anything yet, but here's just a test run.."

That's some serious digging.

It just doesn't look good making wagers 1/3 of the way through the season, no matter what side of the coin you were on. If I woulda asked you for the bet at the beginning of the year, would you have taken it? Knowing you, you probably would because WSU is inferior to everything CU.

You're the same guy who a few posts ago said its still early. If its so early, be a man and accept the wager.

Otherwise, your post just translates as follows: I'm a big p#ssy....

[WSUbballer]

You're the same guy who a few posts ago said its still early. If its so early, be a man and accept the wager.

Otherwise, your post just translates as follows: I'm a big p#ssy....

It's easy to be "big and tough" sitting in your boat.

Perhaps since I'm the putty, I should make the bet at a time more convenient for me, and less for you.. say after CU loses 2 or 3 in a row and takes a bit of a nose dive..

Okie dokie?

[DoubleJayAlum]

It's easy to be "big and tough" sitting in your boat.

Perhaps since I'm the putty, I should make the bet at a time more convenient for me, and less for you.. say after CU loses 2 or 3 in a row and takes a bit of a nose dive..

Okie dokie?

You've got a preseason all conference and preseason POY candidate on your roster. We don't even have a player that was honorable mention all conference preseason. You've got three returning starters, we have one. We have nine guys that are playing their first season in a CU uniform.

I figured you'd puss out. I'm sure you'll be there to post your top-notch analysis in every game thread in which CU loses though.

[WSUbballer]

You've got a preseason all conference and preseason POY candidate on your roster. We don't even have a player that was honorable mention all conference preseason. You've got three returning starters, we have one. We have nine guys that are playing their first season in a CU uniform.

Ya, so?

In 2006, I don't think we had any preseason all conference members and look what happened that year. Since you're a genius, I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that a team can do far better with 5 decent, all-around good players with good coaching than say a 'team' with 1 stud and the rest creampuffs with mediocre coaching.

Also genius, consider your coach is in his 13th or 14th or whatever season with your team (well, 12.9999 or 13.9999 if you count that brief disappearance in April) and our coach is in a transition year without his players or system and in his first year.

I'm sure you just had a brain fart and knew all of that though.

I figured you'd puss out. I'm sure you'll be there to post your top-notch analysis in every game thread in which CU loses though.

Puss out or being smart? I dunno. I already admitted I was a puss in my last post. We'll see how well you hold up when the grass doesn't look so green, because it will eventually happen. So be prepared.

I appreciate you feeling so highly of my analysis. Since you're so thrilled by it, I'll make sure I continue to analyze the games as a sign of a good gesture towards you.

[creightonfever]

If I hear one more time about WSUs one hit wonder in 2006, I think Im gonna puke....:bash:

[Divergence]

If I hear one more time about WSUs one hit wonder in 2006, I think Im gonna puke....:bash:

NCAA Appearances - 1964, 1965, 1976, 1981, 1985, 1987, 1988, 2006

[Bird]

Since you're a genius, I'm sure you're well aware of the fact that a team can do far better with 5 decent, all-around good players with good coaching than say a 'team' with 1 stud and the rest creampuffs with mediocre coaching.

Are you suggesting Marshall is a mediocre coach?

[WSUbballer]

Are you suggesting Marshall is a mediocre coach?

Nah. I think he's young but he's got good experience. Of course GodDanaGod is the better coach so when Marshall is compared to him you might have thought of it that way.

He just hasn't set his system and style yet as opposed to his counterpart. Comprende?

[MoValley John]

Knock it off!!!


*Not that there is anything wrong with that.

[WSUbballer]

Knock it off!!!


*Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Oh, so you can argue about MaidRite and Merley Mall and we can't argue about basketball?