The Abyss

[Aargh]

We're way too close to the season without having an "Abyss" thread.

SIU is generally named as the "entering the abyss" team. This year the argument can be made that the loss of Tatum will cause SIU to drop into the abyss.

For the last several years SIU's offense did seem to be Tatum handling the ball and dribbling a lot until he either took a shot or passed to someone who got open because of Tatum's movement.

WSU only lost Miller from their S16 team, but the offense ran through Miller. Without Miller, WSU took about 4 steps past the edge of the abyss. Unlike the cartoons, WSU plummeted and landed hard at the bottom of the cliff with a great Wiley Coyote impersonation.

It's possible SIU will miss Tatum about the same as WSU missed Miller. It's easier to replace a backcourt player than a frontcourt player, so maybe SIU can avoid dropping into the abyss.

[Dawgbit]

abyss-the bottomless gulf, pit, or chaos of the old cosmogonies

One does not casually slide in and out of the abyss, when you are there, you are there.:no:

I feel that Slimy fingers U is already there, and has not yet realized it.

[goaces]

SIU will feel the loss of Young and Tatum considerably, but they are still my choice to win the MVC. By no means, however do I expect a cake walk. I beleive Bradley, and perhaps WSU will be the teams most capable of unseating the Salukis.

[Ricky Del Rio]

Please save the results of this poll.

I suppose the definition of abyss will vary, depending on the subject team.

Given their success over the years and the chest pounding of their supporters on this very forum, the Doggies might consider second place as the abyss.

I think of abyss as a slide for several years in a row.

The Shockers will finish in the bottom half this year. I think 7th or 8th is about right.

[SycamoreFanatic]

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid..............WSU won't be nearly as good this year as their fans on here seem to want to believe........but you gotta believe if you're a fan! They were good last year for about 10 games and then a downward death spiral; don't think the start before the spiral will be that good this year. Wouldn't drop them to MVC play-in YET, but no longer a MVC top five; no matter how much you pay the coach.

:no:

[DawgFan]

A novel approach Ricky. Maybe you'll hit the broadside of the barn.

[WSUbballer]

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid..............WSU won't be nearly as good this year as their fans on here seem to want to believe........but you gotta believe if you're a fan! They were good last year for about 10 games and then a downward death spiral; don't think the start before the spiral will be that good this year. Wouldn't drop them to MVC play-in YET, but no longer a MVC top five; no matter how much you pay the coach.

:no:

So far, only one WSU fan on this thread has made a prediction about the team this year.. and that was a finish of 7th or 8th. No Top 5 finish predictions anywhere.

The ultimate insult: An Indiana State fan openin' up a can of smacky-wacky.. :Jumpy: :bounceblue:

[shockball]

abyss-the bottomless gulf, pit, or chaos of the old cosmogonies

One does not casually slide in and out of the abyss, when you are there, you are there.:no:

I feel that Slimy fingers U is already there, and has not yet realized it.

It's SIU not SfU.

WSU will be middle of the pack. That is 4th, 5th or 6th for the numerically challenged. Too many new components this year.

[SycamoreFanatic]

Just checking to see if you were all alive & kicking out there? The board has been way too quiet during the off-season. We are getting closer to "kick-off" & need to get the smack warmed up.

:sycamores::clap:

[WSUfan]

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid..............WSU won't be nearly as good this year as their fans on here seem to want to believe

I agree; WSU will probably be eleventh or twelfth.

[JVShocker]

I don't smack with anyone, and I don't play games with my picks in predicting 13th place for the Shocks, but I'll put WSU in the Top 3 this year with losing team chemistry issue player to another school and moving Cousinard into his position at the 2 guard *AND* having a non-system-oriented coach that will (hopefully) put a pressing, athletic, and running group on the floor.

SIU to win the Valley - because of defense.
WSU and Creighton - 2nd and 3rd, though it could be reversed.
Bradley 4th.
MSU 5th.
Illinois State 6th.
and the rest in no particular order.

[shockball]

After spending the money (to make money) the budget is still in the black.


From The Wichita Eagle 9/23/2007.

In the black -- For the eight straight year, WSU will finish its fiscal year on the plus side, with a profit of around $100,000, according to athletic director Jim Schaus.

Schaus said the numbers, while still being audited, are close enough to final for public consumption. The fiscal year ended June 30. He said it is typical for the final accounting to continue into the fall as items such as donations and payments continue to reconcile with expenses.

"I'll take any year we're in the black," he said.

WSU's athletic budget is $10.8 million. Its biggest revenue sources are Shocker Athletic Scholarship Organization donations, ticket sales, sponsors and student fees. Among the biggest expenses are scholarships, for which the athletic department writes the university a check, personnel and travel.

[dawg]

Abyssmal thread ...

[outpost]

I think the results of this thread are based on wishful thinking by a few fans.

I am comfortable with the prediction that WSU will be somewhere in the 4-5-6 range, just BARELY ahead of the surging Sycamores.

[doinit salukistyle]

yeah yeah SIU will fall

we get this every time someone graduates

[salukibob]

yeah yeah SIU will fall

we get this every time someone graduates

Ya, I've kind of noticed that. And what have the results been the past say 6 years or so?? :grin:

[Dawgbit]

Please save the results of this poll.

I suppose the definition of abyss will vary, depending on the subject team.

Given their success over the years and the chest pounding of their supporters on this very forum, the Doggies might consider second place as the abyss.

I think of abyss as a slide for several years in a row.

The Shockers will finish in the bottom half this year. I think 7th or 8th is about right.

Knowing what sticklers for detail SFU (Slimy Fingers U) fans are, I used the Merriam-Webster online definition. The "bottomless" in their (MW's) definition would suggest permanency, which, generally speaking, extends beyond "several" years. Of course SFU fans go off (pun intended) on a different tangent when they read "bottomless".

[Awesome Sauce Malone]

Ill vote for Wichita State. for no other reason than everybody else will do the same not because the team is good or bad but because everybody else loves to ***** and complain about us fans.

So take that you turd boys we will finish dead last !!!

http://www.wrestlingpedia.org/public/images/articoli/230.jpg

[IndyTreeFan]

I have to vote for Creighton, because we will soon find out that Kevin McKenna was the real brains behind Dana Altman, and now Indiana State will take its rightful spot at the top of the league. Sorry, Bluebirds, but the reason for your success lately is now in Terre Haute!!!!

And don't give me that stuff about "...what about when McKenna was at UNO..." I haven't had a chance to fit that into my argument yet!!!! :innocent:

:bounceblue::sycamores::bounceblue::sycamores:

[MoValley John]

I have to vote for Creighton, because we will soon find out that Kevin McKenna was the real brains behind Dana Altman, and now Indiana State will take its rightful spot at the top of the league. Sorry, Bluebirds, but the reason for your success lately is now in Terre Haute!!!!

And don't give me that stuff about "...what about when McKenna was at UNO..." I haven't had a chance to fit that into my argument yet!!!! :innocent:

:bounceblue::sycamores::bounceblue::sycamores:

You can't argue against the sweatervest. It's almost as good of a fashion statement as parachute pants.

My pick for the abyss: Evansville. Afterall they and Indiana State invented the abyss. But with McKenna at the helm, daylight once again hits Terra Haute.

Oh, and I'll add Southern Illinois to the list. Not because I feel they will finish any lower than 1st, but just to piss off a few Saluki fans.

[MoValley John]

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/parachutepants_1968_129576 (http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/parachutepants_1968_71629)
Nice!
http://www.intuitiv.ca/poker/sweatervest1.jpg

Nicer!

[Aargh]

http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/parachutepants_1968_129576 (http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/parachutepants_1968_71629)
Nice!
http://www.intuitiv.ca/poker/sweatervest1.jpg

Nicer!

I tend to give a lot of space to anyone dressed like those in MVJ's post.

Not that there's anything wrong with parachute pants or anyone who would wear parachute pants, but the clothing in MVJ's post seems to indicate some lifestyle preferences.

Those pants second from the left are pretty scary.

[Dawgbit]

Here ya go SFU fans, some fresh ammo:

http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage/paper1096/news/2007/09/25/MBasketball/HighRanking.Recruit.Visits.Siu-2988537.shtml

PS- sounds like he is not too wild about the Land of Oz either.

[Divergence]

Here ya go SFU fans, some fresh ammo:

http://media.www.siude.com/media/storage/paper1096/news/2007/09/25/MBasketball/HighRanking.Recruit.Visits.Siu-2988537.shtml

PS- sounds like he is not too wild about the Land of Oz either.

I take it that SIUC kept him away from the killer deer on campus?

So what conference is SIUC thinking about joining?

[pawball]

Sounds like a small town ain't in this guy's thinkin....and like it's more important than the game.

[shockball]

He didn't know SIU was in the MVC before he visited? What program needs this Cinderella?

[WSUbballer]

An SIU match made in heaven.
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:T57z6eGSOaZnQM:www.poster.net/disney-walt/disney-walt-princess-cinderella-9909083.jpg

[Aegyptus]

This is why we need to get the Valley in a different class in people's minds and why I strongly advocate for making a pack with the MWC, A-10, C-USA and perhaps the WAC. In this kid's mind, SIU is a "mid-major" and the Valley is a "mid-major" conference, even though we finished above the Big-12 in RPI last year and the Pac-10 the year before. In this kid's mind there is no difference between Northern Iowa and Northern Arizona, because both schools totally don't register with him. Now, this kid may be an idiot (seems that way), but in college basketball recruiting the majority of kids are idiots. They are watching clips of Michael Jordon, Lebron, and KG not understanding the intricacies of mid-majordom. So, we need separation in a mental sense so that the impression given off by the Valley as a league is fundamentally different than that given off by the Big Sky or SoCon, etc...

There is always going to be a difference between the "power conference" schools and the Missouri Valley schools in kids minds, but we can limit the damage that does both in the minds of recruits and in the minds of everyone else. Banding with the MWC, A-10, C-USA, and perhaps the WAC would immediately create a new classification in people's minds. Since there are 31 D-1 Conferences, taking the 6 power conferences + the 4-5 conferences I mentioned, just might change the label "high-major" conference to those 10-11. Anyway, it is a thought. If Lowrey is really going to go after these recruits (which clearly he is) and if other Valley schools ever have hopes of landing these recruits, we have to find ways as a conference to distinguish ourselves in these kids minds and in the minds of the national audience, because this would also help with scheduling , TV contracts, enrollments, etc... I certainly see room in the national conference for a second tier of power conference across the US. Given the geographic location of the conferences mentioned, they would serve that purpose.

If not and SIU has continued success, another conference realignment is probably only 4-5 years off (with ND stumbling in football, look for a Big 10 move sooner rather than later). With Memphis sitting just 3 hours away, the duo would be a nice pickup for any conference as serve as each other's natural rivals. Or a bunch of these in-between Midwestern teams like SIU, Memphis, Xavier, Creighton, etc. could form a new league. Basically just cutting the bottom off of all those second tier middle of the country leagues. If that coincides with a breakup of the Big East, they may be able to lure Louisville, Marquette, Cincy, etc... If not, you take some teams like UIC which clearly have a very bright future much like the Big East took South Florida and some high academic large city teams like SLU. Anyway, realignment is never that far off and if SIU walks and talks like a high-major program, there is the very real possibility they could leave. They don't really fit academically in the Valley anyway as on paper SIU looks a lot more like Louisville and Memphis than it does UNI or Drake.

I know this is going to start a firestorm (this board has been dead anyway), but this has to be on Lowrey and Moccia's minds when they have a kid like Crittle say I want to come here except you are in the Valley.

[dogdays]

SIU,IL ST,IN St,MO St, WSU,UNI, 6 of the ten Valley Schools...SIU according to US News is ranked equal to or higher than all of these schools. BU,CU,EU,DU...all PRivate schools.
SIU looks much more like the Valley than DU or EU that much is true.

[C0|db|00ded]

I don't think there is a question of if SIU-C will return to the Abyss, it's a matter of when. Some have predicted it sooner rather than later...


T


...:cool:

[WSUfan]

SIU,IL ST,IN St,MO St, WSU,UNI, 6 of the ten Valley Schools...SIU according to US News is ranked equal to or higher than all of these schools. BU,CU,EU,DU...all PRivate schools.
SIU looks much more like the Valley than DU or EU that much is true.
The US News & World Report rankings are a joke; ignore them. (Do you need references or links after all the previous discussion about these rankings? Here is a new one: http://insidehighered.com/views/2007/05/10/mccormick)

SIU is like INSU, ILSU, MSU, UNI and WSU in many ways. Resources vary between states and with time but these schools have many similar features.

[MSNSaluki]

I don't think there is a question of if SIU-C will return to the Abyss, it's a matter of when. Some have predicted it sooner rather than later...


T


...:cool:

Glad you got that community service taken care of so you could enlighten us here at Valley Talk.:lol:

[Dawgbit]

As anticipated, the SFU fans are coming out of the woodwork!:salukis::salukis::salukis:

[outpost]

I take it that SIUC kept him away from the killer deer on campus?

So what conference is SIUC thinking about joining?

He probably avoided the deer, but there's absolutely no way he avoided the "bull"........

[Fraydog]

I don't think there is a question of if SIU-C will return to the Abyss, it's a matter of when. Some have predicted it sooner rather than later...


T


...:cool:

How's your track record on that the last five years? :lol:

[Carrcar]

I am a big tSIU fan, let's get that straight from the get-go. But obviously tSIU has the best chance to slip into the abyss (and with our enviable record of this century it would be a long slide). Here's why I make my prediction:
1. Most prominent problem, we lost our 2 tallest(Foster 6'10" and Acquah 7'1") and our 2 shortest(Young 6'0" and Tatum 6'1") players. What are we left with? A bunch of average size guys (6'2" to 6'8"), and a few untested frosh bigs. Bad Mutha Falker will be OK, Mullins can dish it, and GodShawGod finally "God" it together in the latter part of the season. Green, Clemens, Bone, Boyle, and Armstrong had flashes, but who knows if they can take charge? A guy I was hoping to get in there was Cornelius, but his knee doesn't look good. Woe is us.
2. Coaching is a bugaboo. CLo is still one of the youngest coaches in the conference (and the NCAA). And he's got his same cadre of assistants he started with. They've done pretty well (78-26) the first 3 years, but had to reload just about every year...how can long can this staff keep up the smoke and mirrors.
3. Our poor old barn is on it's last legs. Don't even have hot water in the visitors locker room. And now that we're drawing packed houses, I'm just waiting for something to cave in. We're scheduled for a This Old House segment by 2010, so we'll just have to wait, I guess.
4. We have a real Athletic Dept. That means we've got football. (AMERICAN football...not that girlie thing) Takes a lot of money and dilutes out BB fans for the first few weeks as we always seem to get in the playoffs. I think we should do a WSU, drop football and promote bowling. I know it's not a real spectator sport, but it is a lifelong activity and who can fault a game that has a beer frame?
5. Once again tSIU, as the MVC flagship, will have to deal with being under the Media microscope as a mmtrdfttbimlabcsp (mid major that really doesn't fit the term because it's more like a BCS program). That would fit Gonzaga, too, but they don't have football. Basketball purists among the media have come to love our blue collar, in your face, hard nosed defense and game control.
6. Just some of the problems...woe is us.

[MoValley John]

I am a big tSIU fan, let's get that straight from the get-go. But obviously tSIU has the best chance to slip into the abyss (and with our enviable record of this century it would be a long slide). Here's why I make my prediction:
1. Most prominent problem, we lost our 2 tallest(Foster 6'10" and Acquah 7'1") and our 2 shortest(Young 6'0" and Tatum 6'1") players. What are we left with? A bunch of average size guys (6'2" to 6'8"), and a few untested frosh bigs. Bad Mutha Falker will be OK, Mullins can dish it, and GodShawGod finally "God" it together in the latter part of the season. Green, Clemens, Bone, Boyle, and Armstrong had flashes, but who knows if they can take charge? A guy I was hoping to get in there was Cornelius, but his knee doesn't look good. Woe is us.
2. Coaching is a bugaboo. CLo is still one of the youngest coaches in the conference (and the NCAA). And he's got his same cadre of assistants he started with. They've done pretty well (78-26) the first 3 years, but had to reload just about every year...how can long can this staff keep up the smoke and mirrors.
3. Our poor old barn is on it's last legs. Don't even have hot water in the visitors locker room. And now that we're drawing packed houses, I'm just waiting for something to cave in. We're scheduled for a This Old House segment by 2010, so we'll just have to wait, I guess.
4. We have a real Athletic Dept. That means we've got football. (AMERICAN football...not that girlie thing) Takes a lot of money and dilutes out BB fans for the first few weeks as we always seem to get in the playoffs. I think we should do a WSU, drop football and promote bowling. I know it's not a real spectator sport, but it is a lifelong activity and who can fault a game that has a beer frame?
5. Once again tSIU, as the MVC flagship, will have to deal with being under the Media microscope as a mmtrdfttbimlabcsp (mid major that really doesn't fit the term because it's more like a BCS program). That would fit Gonzaga, too, but they don't have football. Basketball purists among the media have come to love our blue collar, in your face, hard nosed defense and game control.
6. Just some of the problems...woe is us.

I agree. you guys are f*&ked.

[Ricky Del Rio]

Now that the Doggies have informed us that the Doggies have the #1 recruiting class in the nation, I think the Doggies should be removed from this poll.

[iSASO]

I'm convinced.
SIU certainly "walks and talks" like a high major in the area of facilities. It is clear that the resources at their command remind me more of Ohio State than Creighton, Wichita State or Mo State.

[Divergence]

And now that we're drawing packed houses,

Are you speaking of in the future? SIU-C 7,291 average is less than what K-State drew last year.

[iSASO]

I'm sure it was the tractor pulls they host in the state-of-the-art SIU Arena that he was referring to.

[Dawgbit]

I'm sure it was the tractor pulls they host in the state-of-the-art SIU Arena that he was referring to.

When you have the best home winning streak in the nation, you don't have to have tractor pulls. My apologies to SFU fans.

[iSASO]

When you have the best home winning streak in the nation, why can't you sell out every game?

[MoValley John]

When you have the best home winning streak in the nation, why can't you sell out every game?

OUCH!
And touché

[BMull10]

You guys can keep your sellouts, I'll take the winning.

Trust me, selling out every game would be fantastic, but I'll take the W's thank you very much.

[iSASO]

2006 MVC Regular Season Champion
2006 NCAA Sweet 16
2006 All-American Paul Miller
Every game sold out for 2007
Every game sold out for 2008*I think we're doing OK*

When was the last time SIU won 27 games in a season?

[XSaluki]

2006 MVC Regular Season Champion
2006 NCAA Sweet 16
2006 All-American Paul Miller
Every game sold out for 2007
Every game sold out for 2008*I think we're doing OK*

When was the last time SIU won 27 games in a season?

2004-2005, 27 wins
2006-2007, 29 wins

When was the last time for the Shockers?

[underdawg2]

2006 MVC Regular Season Champion
2006 NCAA Sweet 16
2006 All-American Paul Miller
Every game sold out for 2007
Every game sold out for 2008*I think we're doing OK*

When was the last time SIU won 27 games in a season?

Last year 29-7---I think the question of the day is, "why are you such a dumb a**?":lol:

[Fraydog]

I'm sure it was the tractor pulls they host in the state-of-the-art SIU Arena that he was referring to.

Now that Poshard got Carbondale to bite on $20 mil, the days are coming sooner than you think where you'll say that and it won't be tongue-in-cheek. About damn time too. We are stepping up with money and facilities, don't you think its time for respect?

[MSNSaluki]

Why are we providing so much ammunition to the Valley Talk firing squad?:doh:

[iSASO]

Obviously they like the taste of the bait.

[WSUfan]

You guys can keep your sellouts, I'll take the winning.

Trust me, selling out every game would be fantastic, but I'll take the W's thank you very much.

NCAA Tourney Records
SIU 6-10 (.375)
WSU 8-9 (.471)
:grin:

[Divergence]

don't you think its time for respect?

NCAA Tourney Records
SIU 6-10 (.375)
WSU 8-9 (.471)
:grin:


:shockers:

[dakyne]

isaso,

so every time you lose a debate, you resort to the "bait" card? Earth to isaso: we're not taking your bait, we're collectively laughing in your face...honestly, you're starting to look pretty pathetic. "When was the last time SIU won 27 games?" Hahah.........that's a great one.

You're from Wichita, and you mock tractor pulls?

WSU loses games (and face), so you resort to achieving sell-outs? Does winning even count for WSU fans? I guess not, since how a bunch of them are losers.

WSU fan: "oh, we're losers, but at least we have a great mascot". Gee, I'm jealous...:no:

[txsaluki05]

isaso,

so every time you lose a debate, you resort to the "bait" card? Earth to isaso: we're not taking your bait, we're collectively laughing in your face...honestly, you're starting to look pretty pathetic. "When was the last time SIU won 27 games?" Hahah.........that's a great one.

You're from Wichita, and you mock tractor pulls?

WSU loses games (and face), so you resort to achieving sell-outs? Does winning even count for WSU fans? I guess not, since how a bunch of them are losers.

WSU fan: "oh, we're losers, but at least we have a great mascot". Gee, I'm jealous...:no:


b/c counting sellouts is the only thing they can lay claim to these days. that "when's the last time SIU won 27 games?" question made my day today, haha.

:salukis:

[Carrcar]

isaso,
WSU loses games (and face), so you resort to achieving sell-outs? Does winning even count for WSU fans? I guess not, since how a bunch of them are losers.

WSU fan: "oh, we're losers, but at least we have a great mascot". Gee, I'm jealous...:no:
"Which is hokie-dokie for WSU, because, as you know, their credo is "It is better to look good than to play good. And they look absolutely marvelous." Fernando

[WSUbballer]

I thought Saluki fans were better than ValleyTalk..

[MoValley John]

I thought Saluki fans were better than ValleyTalk..
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[C0|db|00ded]

I thought Saluki fans were better than ValleyTalk..

Saluki fans are excited! Not unlike the excitement surrounding the Creighton program last year when they unleashed their GRCOAT! Final Fours were predicted and now SIU-C fans are talking about winning 7 in March... ROFL.

There are always a few eager beavers at the start of every season and this year they happen to be emanating from Carbondale. This is all fine and dandy until a Manmouth comes along...? :lol:

You always feel good for a program like SIU-C to get a little spotlight and momentum because, darn it, they deserve it! Their program has always been considered lower-class (even by Valley standards and that is saying a lot!), but look at what they've done with what they have had to work with? :fear:

Once there was a totally dormant.. no strike that.. Once there was a fledgling program with no tradition, money, or fanbase. Along comes a coach named Weber who installs a system that most coaches would never even dream of subjecting their fans to. But Weber knew he was in Carbondale and who was going to care.. the deer? So he starts recruiting track stars who have always dreamed of playing basketball under the "bright lights", instructs them to run around like clowns for 40 minutes disrupting anything that resembles normal basketball, and voila, "Ugly Ball"tm was born. Now SIU-C is a program that is starting to develop a sort of tradition. There still isn't any money but there is healthy pack of fans who will show up every game...

So back to my sentimental point: Weber's SIU-C is a testament to the American Way and how ANYBODY and I mean ANYBODY (or any program) can win if they just work hard and aren't afraid of completely disgracing themselves in order to succeed.

In closing...

I just love the looks on those SIU-C players when they come to Koch Arena. They are so full of excitement (not surprising considering most probably haven't played basketball for very long) and energy and know what they are supposed to do. They execute their plan like soldiers of war, draining the life out of a game until the clock runs out. Instead of out-performing the opponent they force them to under-perform.. genius! Great work Weber! The joke definitely is on all of us... :ermm:


T


...:cool:

[cuhoops]

Turg is the best coach in the valley.




oooohhh wait...:jays:

[MSNSaluki]

Saluki fans are excited! Not unlike the excitement surrounding the Creighton program last year when they unleashed their GRCOAT! Final Fours were predicted and now SIU-C fans are talking about winning 7 in March... ROFL.

There are always a few eager beavers at the start of every season and this year they happen to be emanating from Carbondale. This is all fine and dandy until a Manmouth comes along...? :lol:

You always feel good for a program like SIU-C to get a little spotlight and momentum because, darn it, they deserve it! Their program has always been considered lower-class (even by Valley standards and that is saying a lot!), but look at what they've done with what they have had to work with? :fear:

Once there was a totally dormant.. no strike that.. Once there was a fledgling program with no tradition, money, or fanbase. Along comes a coach named Weber who installs a system that most coaches would never even dream of subjecting their fans to. But Weber knew he was in Carbondale and who was going to care.. the deer? So he starts recruiting track stars who have always dreamed of playing basketball under the "bright lights", instructs them to run around like clowns for 40 minutes disrupting anything that resembles normal basketball, and voila, "Ugly Ball"tm was born. Now SIU-C is a program that is starting to develop a sort of tradition. There still isn't any money but there is healthy pack of fans who will show up every game...

So back to my sentimental point: Weber's SIU-C is a testament to the American Way and how ANYBODY and I mean ANYBODY (or any program) can win if they just work hard and aren't afraid of completely disgracing themselves in order to succeed.

In closing...

I just love the looks on those SIU-C players when they come to Koch Arena. They are so full of excitement (not surprising considering most probably haven't played basketball for very long) and energy and know what they are supposed to do. They execute their plan like soldiers of war, draining the life out of a game until the clock runs out. Instead of out-performing the opponent they force them to under-perform.. genius! Great work Weber! The joke definitely is on all of us... :ermm:


T


...:cool:

That's a beautiful argument except for one thing ... it's based on a false premise.
Weber's teams played good defense but they had plenty of offensive weapons and averaged 75 points a game.
It wasn't until the year of Matt Painter and subsequently, Chris Lowery, that SIU put more emphasis on defense than offense.

But, those are just details. You were on a roll.:doh:

And you talking about eager beavers is truly the pot calling the kettle black.:shutup:

[WSUfan]

I intended to add to my post with
NCAA Tourney Records
SIU 6-10 (.375)
WSU 8-9 (.471)
the amount spent on athletics from the MM site:

SIU: Athletic Expenses (2006) $9,703,501
Rank 193 of 331 http://www.midmajority.com/school.php?s=SIU

WSU: Athletic Expenses (2006) $13,621,528
Rank 141 of 331 http://www.midmajority.com/school.php?s=WICH

Selling out the arena can help revenue and allow a school to spend more money on athletics. Creighton (without football) spends more than SIU:

Creighton: Athletic Expenses (2006) $10,624,799
Rank 173 of 331 http://www.midmajority.com/school.php?s=CREI

ADDED: BCS spending http://www.fanblogs.com/ncaa/006237.php

[WSUfan]

WSU fan: "oh, we're losers, but at least we have a great mascot". Gee, I'm jealous...:no:

http://www.mvc-sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7600&ATCLID=1252295
Wichita State 3, Southern Illinois 0
WSU (13-4, 5-1 MVC); SIU (10-6, 2-3 MVC)
WICHITA, Kan. – Wichita State (13-4, 5-1) recorded its sixth-straight match sweep, downing Missouri Valley Conference foe Southern Illinois (10-6, 2-3) at Charles Koch Arena.
Wichita State jumped out to a 17-10 lead in game one and increased it to 27-17 on a kill by Lindsey Eckenrode. The Shockers never trailed in the game and took a 30-18 win.

The Shockers took a 12-7 advantage in game two before the Salukis cut it to 14-12 with a block. Three-straight Shocker points gave WSU a 17-12 lead and SIU got no closer than five the rest of the way in a 30-22 win.

In game three, the Shockers trailed 4-2 early, but scored 10-straight points on Emily Stockman’s serve. The point streak was highlighted by two apiece from Eckenrode and Stephanie Tokarz.
Katie Niggemeyer then served five-straight to help the Shockers to a 22-8 lead, and they never
looked back, taking game three by a score of 30-11.

Eckenrode led the Shocker attack with a season-high 12 kills. Tokarz added 11 kills and Stockman tallied 10. On the defensive side, four Shocker recorded double-digit digs led by Kelly Broussard’s 24. Stockman notched a double-double with 16 digs, and Melissa Granville and Sara Lungren recorded 15 and 13 digs, respectively.

At the net, the Shockers totaled nine team blocks with Niggemeyer and Tokarz each having one solo block and three assisted blocks.
:lol:

[WSUfan]

Not always losers (to SIU):

SPRINGFIELD, Mo.- Wichita State (47-18) defeated Southern Illinois (34-22), 4-2, in the Missouri Valley Conference Tournament to stay alive in tournament play. The Shockers will next play Evansville at 3:30 p.m. on Friday.
http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=36445&SPID=2904&DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=899977


Wichita State placed four runners in the top-seven finishers, claiming second, fourth, sixth and seventh-place finishes en route to 38 points and easily outdistancing runners-up Southern Illinois by 42 points.
http://www.mvc-sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7600&KEY=&ATCLID=660142&SPID=2902&SPSID=36404


CARBONDALE, Ill.- Wichita State (30-8, 10-2) went 2-0 on the day to complete the sweep of Southern Illinois (23-12, 4-5) by defeating the Salukis 8-4 in game one before a 19-9 run rule in game two.
http://www.goshockers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=61169&SPID=2844&DB_OEM_ID=7500&ATCLID=865177


Wichita State captured a fourth-consecutive MVC All-Sports Trophy during the 2006-07 school year. It was the Shockers’ 16th overall All-Sports Trophy, the highest number for any Valley institution. The Shockers became just the third program in league history to win four-straight all-sport titles.
http://www.mvc-sports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=7600&KEY=&ATCLID=271380

[doinit salukistyle]

shucker fans are getting desperate

"YOU MAY HAVE SWEPT US LAST YEAR IN BASKETBALL BUT....BUT...BUT...........WE BEAT YOU IN VOLLEYBALL"

[doinit salukistyle]

and in cross country..WAY TO GO! :clap:

[Ricky Del Rio]

God help the Doggies, if they stumble out of the gate.

Whatever firm, which powers this site, will need to increase its server capacity by 4 fold to process the avalanche of posts on this esteemed forum.

I am so looking forward to the season.

[doinit salukistyle]

you've been saying that for 5 years...it will happen some day for ya...then again, last time we did stumble out of the gate we still made it to the dance

and shoot...this whole abyss thread is your fault anyway...remember that

[WSUfan]

and in cross country..WAY TO GO! :clap:

And for the All-Sports Trophy. However SIU fans don't care about such things.

CCUC SALUKI: "They're doing pretty good so far. Keep it up, I want that All-Sports trophy!"

" I really hope so. I'm smellin' that All-Sports trophy."
http://www.salukitalk.net/st/viewtopic.php?t=16085&sid=97dc8156e2bc7db3f9559e999af9350e

Southern 69: "Way to go ladies! Let's get that all sports trophy this year!"
http://www.salukitalk.net/st/viewtopic.php?t=15879&sid=97dc8156e2bc7db3f9559e999af9350e

[MoValley John]

shucker fans are getting desperate

"YOU MAY HAVE SWEPT US LAST YEAR IN BASKETBALL BUT....BUT...BUT...........WE BEAT YOU IN VOLLEYBALL"

Definition of a major sport: Whatever The Wichita State University is excelling in at the moment.

[WSUbballer]

Definition of a major sport: Whatever The Wichita State University is excelling in at the moment.

John, can you at least list a "favorite team" you have in the Valley, so the smack door can be open to you as well?

It's a tad unfair coming on here and laying the law down on another team's fans without having any convictions of your own favorite team to harass. Maybe your favorite resides in the Big XII?.. :naughty:

[DoubleJayAlum]

Definition of a major sport: Whatever The Wichita State University is excelling in at the moment.

DING! We have a winner!!

[DawgieStyle]

I can't believe this is still a thread.

[MoValley John]

I'm an equal opportunity smack talker. Sometimes the smack makes you laugh, other times it boils your blood. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just having fun.

As far as favorites go, I have no college favorites, just teams I dislike. I went to a very, very small school in Il that played D-3. I din't go to games or follow the teams. I don't think anybody but old people from Naperville did. Therefore, I don't even know if my alma mater wins or loses at anything.

I love Valley basketball because it's competitive, high quality ball and I have been able to attend a bunch of games in many Valley cities. I don't care about any other Valley sports.

The teams I dislike: The entire Big XII, in particular Nebraska, Texas and K-State. I hate Michigan. I hate Miami because they are thugs, Maryland, Duke, North Carolina for no particular reason and I'm getting sick and tired of the weekly Brent Musberger promotion of USC.

I am a fan of the following: Cubs, Bears, Blackhawks and Bulls. I despise with all my heart the White Sox. I HATE ANYTHING SOCCER!

Now if you want to pidgeonhole me and make me pick a team, as I have said in the past, I'll choose Drake for no other reason than my sister ran track for Drake and earned an actuarial sciences degree from the fine, private university nestled in the middle of a friendly, gun infested slum.

Go Bulldogs!

Nah, I just can't really get all that worked up for Drake, but give me credit, I tried.

[C0|db|00ded]

John, can you at least list a "favorite team" you have in the Valley, so the smack door can be open to you as well?

It's a tad unfair coming on here and laying the law down on another team's fans without having any convictions of your own favorite team to harass. Maybe your favorite resides in the Big XII?.. :naughty:

I believe he is the same guy that used to post under a name showing loyalty to some obscure school from an obscure conference. Idaho or was it a Mountain or Sun Valley conference school?...

Everything about his posting style mirrors that poster's style..


T


...:cool:

[MoValley John]

I believe he is the same guy that used to post under a name showing loyalty to some obscure school from an obscure conference. Idaho or was it a Mountain or Sun Valley conference school?...

Everything about his posting style mirrors that poster's style..


T


...:cool:

Cool!!!

[WSUfan]

I'm an equal opportunity smack talker. Sometimes the smack makes you laugh, other times it boils your blood. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just having fun.

As far as favorites go, I have no college favorites, just teams I dislike. I went to a very, very small school in Il that played D-3. I din't go to games or follow the teams. I don't think anybody but old people from Naperville did. Therefore, I don't even know if my alma mater wins or loses at anything.

I love Valley basketball because it's competitive, high quality ball and I have been able to attend a bunch of games in many Valley cities. I don't care about any other Valley sports.

The teams I dislike: The entire Big XII, in particular Nebraska, Texas and K-State. I hate Michigan. I hate Miami because they are thugs, Maryland, Duke, North Carolina for no particular reason and I'm getting sick and tired of the weekly Brent Musberger promotion of USC.

I am a fan of the following: Cubs, Bears, Blackhawks and Bulls. I despise with all my heart the White Sox. I HATE ANYTHING SOCCER!

Now if you want to pidgeonhole me and make me pick a team, as I have said in the past, I'll choose Drake for no other reason than my sister ran track for Drake and earned an actuarial sciences degree from the fine, private university nestled in the middle of a friendly, gun infested slum.

Go Bulldogs!

Nah, I just can't really get all that worked up for Drake, but give me credit, I tried.

:bulldogs: :bulldogs: :bulldogs: :bulldogs:

Feel better? :grin:

[MSNSaluki]

God help the Doggies, if they stumble out of the gate.

Whatever firm, which powers this site, will need to increase its server capacity by 4 fold to process the avalanche of posts on this esteemed forum.

I am so looking forward to the season.

Suddenly, I'm not.:no:

[DawgieStyle]

God help the Doggies, if they stumble out of the gate.

Whatever firm, which powers this site, will need to increase its server capacity by 4 fold to process the avalanche of posts on this esteemed forum.

I am so looking forward to the season.

to be fair, SIU fans really are only talking about their upcoming recruiting class, not the upcoming season, in which that class has no bearing. To that end, things are much more subdued, than say last year when it was wichita hell on here.

[Dawgbit]

When you have the best home winning streak in the nation, why can't you sell out every game?

Because people get used to winning. You would not know about that.

Now, on a PERCENTAGE basis, more of the general population in the area attend SIU games than probably any other Valley school. IN ST may be an exception, for obvious reasons.

Are there any other deceased horses you would care to beat upon??

[WSUbballer]

to be fair, SIU fans really are only talking about their upcoming recruiting class, not the upcoming season, in which that class has no bearing. To that end, things are much more subdued, than say last year when it was wichita hell on here.

There's been alotta hype in here so far, unproven hype none the less though..

Just give it time. A nice November run by the Salukis and they'll be a swarming in. And I do remember towards the end of last year, the dog kennels came open and there was a bit of a rush of canine freaks across the premises.

[doinit salukistyle]

There's been alotta hype in here so far, unproven hype none the less though..

Just give it time. A nice November run by the Salukis and they'll be a swarming in. And I do remember towards the end of last year, the dog kennels came open and there was a bit of a rush of canine freaks across the premises.

as compared to beginning of the year with wsu fans???

[doinit salukistyle]

I'm an equal opportunity smack talker. Sometimes the smack makes you laugh, other times it boils your blood. Don't take it too seriously, I'm just having fun.

As far as favorites go, I have no college favorites, just teams I dislike. I went to a very, very small school in Il that played D-3. I din't go to games or follow the teams. I don't think anybody but old people from Naperville did.

NORTH CENTRAL SUCKS!!!!

[Aargh]

SIU's FB team may actually average more points per game this year than SIU's basketball team. I wonder if that's ever been done before?

Earlier this year in Carbondale there was a town hall meeting to discuss what was going on at SIU and SIU's struggle for funding, particularly in the athletic department.

After several hours of discussion it was concluded that the citizens either needed to find a couple thousand more people to attend each basketball game or the citizens would have to vote a tax on themselves to fund some improvements at SIU.

Several weeks later the citizens voted to tax themselves rather than attend SIU home games.

[MoValley John]

BU

[MoValley John]

Lisle

[WSUbballer]

as compared to beginning of the year with wsu fans???

I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you or anyone that some of our fans laid it on pretty thick and acted like morons (and they had to eat it later)..

I'm just reminding the board that SIU fans aren't prissy, pretty, little angels thinking they or some of their fans can and have done no wrong..

[dakyne]

cold,

ANYBODY (or any program) can win if they just work hard and aren't afraid of completely disgracing themselves in order to succeed.


You're a WSU fan, one that blathered on and on last season, and now all of a sudden you know the definition of "disgrace"? Have you talked to any Virginia Tech fans? Or KU fans, or even any UCLA fans? Does the word "disgrace" come to their mind when describing SIU basketball? Where the hell was WSU and their #8 ranking? That had to have been the most fraudulent ranking in the history of college basketball--ever.

Did some of you lose that much money betting on WSU that you feel the need to come on here with that weak sauce?

Women's volleyball? Cross country?

How about tiddly winks? Does that count?
:doh:

Let it be known that no fan is saying SIU is going to walk away with the MVC crown--perhaps they are a deserving favorite, but given their losses to graduation, it won't be a cakewalk--they may not even win it. But the recruiting is at a level that is what it is--decorated. It does portend well for future Saluki teams, but it's certainly no guarantee. Let's keep in perspective what SIU fans are saying today vs. what was said last year by some overly jubilant, but dead-wrong fans.

Misery loves company but I'm joining your party.

[Cdizzle]

cold,



Where the hell was WSU and their #8 ranking? That had to have been the most fraudulent ranking in the history of college basketball--ever.




This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Say what you want about the over-estimation of schedule strength, and the collapse during the second half of the season(both undoubtedly true), but that team played like a top 15 team for a month and a half. Did it fall apart? Absolutely. But if you go back and watch those games, you will see two entirely different teams.

:valley:

[dakyne]

cdizzle,

Fans of other MVC schools are used to hearing excuses from WSU fans. If it sounds like fans from CU, SIU, BU, etc. are ganging up on some WSU fans, that's because it's true, and deserved. Many WSU fans made outlandish claims and ended up eating their words.

Now you're claiming WSU hit a wall because __________ (fill in the blank). No one knows for sure all the reasons, but there is no good excuse, other than injuries (I recall PJ may have been dinged up a bit). Other than that, the results speak for themselves. WSU was never that good, and never improved, unlike most teams that did.

Even if WSU acted and played like two different teams, which you suggest, wouldn't it make sense that they would improve as the season went along? If not, who's to blame--the coaches or the players? The answer is probably both. Either way, it's still an excuse. They either were good, but didn't play up to potential. That's on the players and/or the coaches. Or they just weren't very good, beating overrated teams. Either way, they lost, figuratively and literally.

At the end of the day, winning is preferable over losing, no matter how "ugly" it may seem to some (which is a minority). And BTW, WSU didn't exactly lose "pretty" either. They lost ugly--real ugly...and there's nothing ridiculous about that assessment. WSU fans have no room to talk about "ridiculous" statements--you guys are the poster children for that.

[Ricky Del Rio]

I never realized it, but perfection was invented in Jackson County, Illinois.

Has this information been posted in Wikipedia? If not, it should be.

[doinit salukistyle]

bout time you figured it out

[MoValley John]

I never realized it, but perfection was invented in Jackson County, Illinois.

Has this information been posted in Wikipedia? If not, it should be.

They also invented NASCAR airboats.

http://www.airboats.ca/images/boatpics/Black%20Airboat.jpg

[MoValley John]

This is how they plan to add seats at SIU Arena:

http://www.gadling.com/media/2006/04/airboat.jpg

[WSUfan]

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Say what you want about the over-estimation of schedule strength, and the collapse during the second half of the season(both undoubtedly true), but that team played like a top 15 team for a month and a half. Did it fall apart? Absolutely. But if you go back and watch those games, you will see two entirely different teams.

:valley:

I agree with you to some extent but I think other teams started exploiting our weaknesses. PJ missed the New Mexico game and they had a tall guard/short forward go off on us. We didn't have a center and MVC teams exploited this. And, of course, "emotional" issues developed on the team and we melted down.

[DawgieStyle]

cdizzle,

Fans of other MVC schools are used to hearing excuses from WSU fans. If it sounds like fans from CU, SIU, BU, etc. are ganging up on some WSU fans, that's because it's true, and deserved. Many WSU fans made outlandish claims and ended up eating their words.

Now you're claiming WSU hit a wall because __________ (fill in the blank). No one knows for sure all the reasons, but there is no good excuse, other than injuries (I recall PJ may have been dinged up a bit). Other than that, the results speak for themselves. WSU was never that good, and never improved, unlike most teams that did.

Even if WSU acted and played like two different teams, which you suggest, wouldn't it make sense that they would improve as the season went along? If not, who's to blame--the coaches or the players? The answer is probably both. Either way, it's still an excuse. They either were good, but didn't play up to potential. That's on the players and/or the coaches. Or they just weren't very good, beating overrated teams. Either way, they lost, figuratively and literally.

At the end of the day, winning is preferable over losing, no matter how "ugly" it may seem to some (which is a minority). And BTW, WSU didn't exactly lose "pretty" either. They lost ugly--real ugly...and there's nothing ridiculous about that assessment. WSU fans have no room to talk about "ridiculous" statements--you guys are the poster children for that.

aint that the truth....i ended up sounding like prophet last year, despite being hammered on this board in November and December by WSU fans....I Was told I knew absolutely nothing, and that my view of WSU wasn't that good was me being completely bias...well, heh....guess who ended up being right last year? I've never said much about those dark days last year, and let the results speak for them selves...but it is kind of nice to say i told you so.

[Cdizzle]

aint that the truth....i ended up sounding like prophet last year, despite being hammered on this board in November and December by WSU fans....I Was told I knew absolutely nothing, and that my view of WSU wasn't that good was me being completely bias...well, heh....guess who ended up being right last year? I've never said much about those dark days last year, and let the results speak for them selves...but it is kind of nice to say i told you so.

As I remember the only thing you ever "told us" was that we could take losing to Syracuse and LSU, both very good teams, to the bank. Turns out you couldn't have been more wrong. We won both games, and both of those teams weren't nearly as good as you had claimed.

[DawgieStyle]

As I remember the only thing you ever "told us" was that we could take losing to Syracuse and LSU, both very good teams, to the bank. Turns out you couldn't have been more wrong. We won both games, and both of those teams weren't nearly as good as you had claimed.

and if they weren't as good as I Claimed...what's that say about the quality of the wins over them? My point still stands that they were nice wins at the time, but based on the rest of your season, you got lucky.

[WSUfan]

and if they weren't as good as I Claimed...what's that say about the quality of the wins over them? My point still stands that they were nice wins at the time, but based on the rest of your season, you got lucky.
So how were you right? WSU beat LSU. WSU beat Syracuse.

[DawgieStyle]

So how were you right? WSU beat LSU. WSU beat Syracuse.

and I also said while nice wins. WSU wasn't near as good as you and your fans thought.

i distinctly remember threads about being #1 and national titles, and how being ranked ONLY #8 was a slap in the face. I remember laughing at those types of comments, only to be hammered by your fellow posters for thinking otherwise.

I got hammered for making wrong predictions, about a couple games. when do WSU fans get hammered for making wrong predictions FOR AN ENTIRE SEASON!

I think most of us let it slide, because we felt bad for how you and your team had fell so far, so quick, and we felt that was enough shame. No sense in kicking you while you were down, but if you want to start it back up, I have no problems re-living last season, what about you?

[WSUfan]

I got hammered for making wrong predictions, about a couple games. when do WSU fans get hammered for making wrong predictions FOR AN ENTIRE SEASON!

Every day until the 2007-8 season starts; we know how badly the season turned out, even if you don't remind us. But thanks for reminding us.

[DawgieStyle]

Every day until the 2007-8 season starts; we know how badly the season turned out, even if you don't remind us. But thanks for reminding us.

What did you expect in a "which team is in the abyss" thread.

[DoubleJayAlum]

For me, the highlight on this board last season was when the Shocker fan made a video about how great WSU was. Perhaps the greatest jinx of all time.

Where is that video now? The abyss, I assume?

[DawgieStyle]

For me, the highlight on this board last season was when the Shocker fan made a video about how great WSU was. Perhaps the greatest jinx of all time.

Where is that video now? The abyss, I assume?

i remember that video...an instant classic.

[DoubleJayAlum]

This is an absolutely ridiculous statement. Say what you want about the over-estimation of schedule strength, and the collapse during the second half of the season(both undoubtedly true), but that team played like a top 15 team for a month and a half. Did it fall apart? Absolutely. But if you go back and watch those games, you will see two entirely different teams.

:valley:

I understand what you are saying, but I think a lot of people here, in hindsight, think that the reason that WSU looked so good against LSU, Syracuse, and George Mason was due to the fact that those teams were, in all actuality, pretty bad.

[C0|db|00ded]

I understand what you are saying, but I think a lot of people here, in hindsight, think that the reason that WSU looked so good against LSU, Syracuse, and George Mason was due to the fact that those teams were, in all actuality, pretty bad.

If that's what helps you sleep at night.. :lol::lol:

Those "bad" teams we beat went on to beat several of the top 5 teams in the country and were loaded with Burger-Boys and All-Americans. Several of their players will be in the NBA. We set/broke records at Syracuse that have never been set/broken and will never be broken...

The truth is the Shox were playing at an extremely high level against one of the better coaches in the country and went on a 29-1 run and left a crowd of 25,000 people speechless.

Don't you wish you had even one memory like that?? :lol::lol:

Where is that video? I want to reminisce.. :banana:

It's a great day to be a Shocker! I feel lucky! :bounceblue::banana::clap:


T


...:cool:

[DoubleJayAlum]

If that's what helps you sleep at night.. :lol::lol:

Those "bad" teams we beat went on to beat several of the top 5 teams in the country and were loaded with Burger-Boys and All-Americans. Several of their players will be in the NBA. We set/broke records at Syracuse that have never been set/broken and will never be broken...

The truth is the Shox were playing at an extremely high level against one of the better coaches in the country and went on a 29-1 run and left a crowd of 25,000 people speechless.

Don't you wish you had even one memory like that?? :lol::lol:

Where is that video? I want to reminisce.. :banana:

It's a great day to be a Shocker! I feel lucky! :bounceblue::banana::clap:


T


...:cool:

Yup, the teams you beat were so great they failed to even make the NCAA tourney. I know, I know, Syracuse did make the NIT, so I guess a fan of WSU, a team that failed to participate in any kind of postseason play, might be impressed. Good job - you beat an NIT team at their house!

[C0|db|00ded]

Yup, the teams you beat were so great they failed to even make the NCAA tourney. I know, I know, Syracuse did make the NIT, so I guess a fan of WSU, a team that failed to participate in any kind of postseason play, might be impressed. Good job - you beat an NIT team at their house!

Yeah, NIT teams.. yeah, yeah.. keep talking..

And LSU went on to beat National Champion Florida.. yeah yeah..

If you only had one memory like that...

ROFL :lol::lol::lol:

It's a great day..


T


...:cool:

[DawgieStyle]

Yeah, NIT teams.. yeah, yeah.. keep talking..

And LSU went on to beat National Champion Florida.. yeah yeah..

If you only had one memory like that...

ROFL :lol::lol::lol:

It's a great day..


T


...:cool:


true or false numbnuts....

syracuse participated in the 2007 National Invite Tournament.

T or F.

[WSUbballer]

aint that the truth....i ended up sounding like prophet last year, despite being hammered on this board in November and December by WSU fans....I Was told I knew absolutely nothing, and that my view of WSU wasn't that good was me being completely bias...well, heh....guess who ended up being right last year? I've never said much about those dark days last year, and let the results speak for them selves...but it is kind of nice to say i told you so.
Um.. what?
As already mentioned, you sounded and looked like a half-witted moron, guaranteeing losses at Syracuse and LSU.

I told you so?

LOL.. ya okkkk..

[WSUbballer]

For me, the highlight on this board last season was when the Shocker fan made a video about how great WSU was. Perhaps the greatest jinx of all time.

Where is that video now? The abyss, I assume?

That was a pretty funny video. I'd also like to know where it is. If you find it, let me know.

Speaking of greatest jinxes of all time, 2006 ranks up there pretty high. My highlight of that year was seeing a CU fan on tv, laughing his nuts off, holding a sign up stating, "WSU: Official Sponsor of the NIT".
Jinx? CU finishes the season on a downward spiral, becomes an NIT participant, while WSU reaches their first NCAA Tournament in 18 years and reaches the Sweet 16.

Classic.

[WSUbballer]

i remember that video...an instant classic.
Classic, indeed!

You were THE laughing stock of VT for a solid month!

Good times.

[DawgieStyle]

Classic, indeed!

You were THE laughing stock of VT for a solid month!

Good times.

now who's laughing.........biggest crash in MVC history..be proud.

[WSUbballer]

now who's laughing.........biggest crash in MVC history..be proud.

I'm still laughing. Remember when you were so teary-eyed about the whole situation that you actually issued a public apology to the board?

Butthurt anyone?

I beg, and beg, and beg you to make many more predictions so the laughs can keep on coming.. !! .. :clap::lol::lol:

[MoValley John]

I'm just waiting for the obligatory "Has X,Y or Z school peaked?" threads. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Also, here's the Dawgiestyke apology: http://www.valleytalk.net/showthread.php?t=2773&highlight=apologize

While Dawgie took a hit on his ego, he's right, message boards are just message boards.

[DawgieStyle]

I'm just waiting for the obligatory "Has X,Y or Z school peaked?" threads. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Also, here's the Dawgiestyke apology: http://www.valleytalk.net/showthread.php?t=2773&highlight=apologize

While Dawgie took a hit on his ego, he's right, message boards are just message boards.

exactly. Did I make a wrong prediction, sure....did I hype my school to be the end all be all of basketball programs only to watch them crash and burn.....nope. I can live with that.

[Dawgbit]

Hey Clod, your routine is getting pretty effing old, we have all seen it, ad nauseam.

Do not urinate on my boots and tell me that is raining, okay?

[WSUbballer]

did I hype my school to be the end all be all of basketball programs only to watch them crash and burn.....nope. I can live with that.

Actually, at one point you didn't hype em up, but actually called for Lowery's head, if I recall, at one point.

If you get rid of your bipolar and ADHD disorders, you might be a little less nuisance for your fans, our fans, and everybody.. :innocent:

[MSNSaluki]

Is this thread really happening?
Please make it end.:doh:

[WSUfan]

Is this thread really happening?
Please make it end.:doh:
Why? VT is such fun and we always support MVC schools when they play BCS schools.

[MSNSaluki]

Why? VT is such fun and we always support MVC schools when they play BCS schools.

Yeah, but these interconference pissing matches really get old.:helpsmilie:

[iSASO]

Speaking of reminiscing...


Originally Posted by DawgieStyle 11/2006<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
here's the deal, I don't think they have a chance to win. So why argue the point. The down low presence of LSU can not be over come by <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wichita</st1:place></st1:City>...they don't have the personnel. MSU isn't as good as their fans would like to think, and they're games have been abberations in my opinion, they won't have an answer for Alando Tucker. The only scenario in which I can see <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Wichita</st1:place></st1:City> and MSU winning is if Davis and Tucker get injured.

If Wichita or MSU play a different school say like UNC or Fla. who are just as good as LSU and Wisc they would have a better chance of winning those games, because their personnel matches up better.<o:p></o:p>

CUsidekick05 – 12/31/06 10:37pm<o:p></o:p>
this is true....i cant wait to see them drop out of the rankings<o:p></o:p>

[WSUfan]

Yeah, but these interconference pissing matches really get old.:helpsmilie:
Agreed. But if you're bored and waiting for basketball season, .....

[DawgieStyle]

Speaking of reminiscing...

would you like me to go back and find your quotes about how great Wichita was going to be the rest of that season...cough cough...

I can play this game too.

[DawgieStyle]

Yeah, but these interconference pissing matches really get old.:helpsmilie:

MSN, I respect your opinion....but we're bored, the season hasn't started yet. and to be fair you DID wander into the abyss thread all on your own.

If you don't want to read topics like this, I suggest you avoid threads titled abyss...and so forth.

[outpost]

would you like me to go back and find your quotes about how great Wichita was going to be the rest of that season...cough cough...

I can play this game too.

DS - I would doubt that you'll find anything attributed to ISASO.

[doinit salukistyle]

this thread is a microcosm of valleytalk

WSU touts their greatness, siu counters with their better record, wsu counters with attendance

Coldblooded made his normal amusing spin claiming it's a great day to be a shucker fan

Dawgiestyle takes the bait, and even worse, refuses to let anyone else get the last word in

Mo Valley chimes in playing the "i dont follow any team so you can't rip on my school" (ps Benedictine WISHES they were North central...booya!)

Some people come back with "ugh I hate this thread"

And just to make everything perfect...Isaso closes the deal by going back into the archives and using something you said many months ago, and hold it against you now

bravo, if you wanted to know the state of valleytalk, just open this thread

[MoValley John]

Don't rip me, you bastard!!!!

[DawgieStyle]

this thread is a microcosm of valleytalk

WSU touts their greatness, siu counters with their better record, wsu counters with attendance

Coldblooded made his normal amusing spin claiming it's a great day to be a shucker fan

Dawgiestyle takes the bait, and even worse, refuses to let anyone else get the last word in

Mo Valley chimes in playing the "i dont follow any team so you can't rip on my school" (ps Benedictine WISHES they were North central...booya!)

Some people come back with "ugh I hate this thread"

And just to make everything perfect...Isaso closes the deal by going back into the archives and using something you said many months ago, and hold it against you now

bravo, if you wanted to know the state of valleytalk, just open this thread


if you hate it so much...why are you posting.

[MoValley John]

Getting excited about my alma mater is like people here in Omaha getting excited about UNO. It just doesn't happen. :noexpression:

[MoValley John]

So here's the question of the day, which was/is a more entertaining pissing match, last year's Creighton/ Wichita State fiasco or this years Southern Illinois/ Wichita State diatribe?

[DawgieStyle]

So here's the question of the day, which was/is a more entertaining pissing match, last year's Creighton/ Wichita State fiasco or this years Southern Illinois/ Wichita State diatribe?

hey at least we are comparing basketball programs and not each others bastardized cities.

[MoValley John]

hey at least we are comparing basketball programs and not each others bastardized cities.

Carbondale, a city?
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[MoValley John]

I take that back, Carbondale has to be a city. Afterall, they have a post office, a taxidermy shop and a Piggly Wiggly.

[DawgieStyle]

Carbondale, a city?
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

i was referring to the Wichita V. Ohama battle royales of last year.

[WSUbballer]

would you like me to go back and find your quotes about how great Wichita was going to be the rest of that season...cough cough...

I can play this game too.

I'd like to see how your game is doing so go ahead and hit us up with a few.

That has to be one of the better lines in VT history though.. 'The only way they win is if Davis or Tucker go down. Period.'

[WSUfan]

I'd like to see how your game is doing so go ahead and hit us up with a few.

That has to be one of the better lines in VT history though.. 'The only way they win is if Davis or Tucker go down. Period.'

I hope you don't mean by "go down" ... Never Mind. :no:

:lol:

[DoubleJayAlum]

So here's the question of the day, which was/is a more entertaining pissing match, last year's Creighton/ Wichita State fiasco or this years Southern Illinois/ Wichita State diatribe?

Find the common element and you've found the problem.

[WSUbballer]

Find the common element and you've found the problem.

Jealousy?

[DawgieStyle]

I hope you don't mean by "go down" ... Never Mind. :no:

:lol:

aren't you the guy who started the "best for the valley thread?"

[DawgieStyle]

ok, seriously, when does the season start......I need my college basketball fix. As much fun as the board is, its not cutting it.

[MoValley John]

aren't you the guy who started the "best for the valley thread?"

http://www.valleytalk.net/showthread.php?t=2907&highlight=Valley

[WSUfan]

aren't you the guy who started the "best for the valley thread?"
Absolutely. And I stand by that post; the only way for the current media to take the MVC seriously is for a Valley team to make the Final Four (or better). Last year I thought WSU had a shot; I was wrong. However we need some current Valley team to make the Final Four or win it all if we want to get rid of the "mid-major" label.

[DoubleJayAlum]

Absolutely. And I stand by that post; the only way for the current media to take the MVC seriously is for a Valley team to make the Final Four (or better). Last year I thought WSU had a shot; I was wrong. However we need some current Valley team to make the Final Four or win it all if we want to get rid of the "mid-major" label.

How's that working out for the CAA?

[WSUfan]

How's that working out for the CAA?
Considering the fact that nobody else in the CAA has done much in the NCAA tourney, it has not helped the CAA. With BU, SIU and WSU in the Sweet 16 over the last two years, a run to the Final Four by a Valley team (Creighton??) next year might help remove the mid-major tag from the MVC.

[MoValley John]

But we are ignoring the first part of the theory. The team must rip thrugh conference play undefeated-for the good of the Valley. They must dominate the league- for the good of the Valley. They must win the conference tourney and then make a deep, bold run in the NCAA's- for the good of the Valley.

Like Gonzaga. Like UNLV. Like Marymount. You see, those schools made a joke of their conferences and made deep runs. How did it work for their conferences?

[DawgieStyle]

But we are ignoring the first part of the theory. The team must rip thrugh conference play undefeated-for the good of the Valley. They must dominate the league- for the good of the Valley. They must win the conference tourney and then make a deep, bold run in the NCAA's- for the good of the Valley.

Like Gonzaga. Like UNLV. Like Marymount. You see, those schools made a joke of their conferences and made deep runs. How did it work for their conferences?

yah, he's "ignoring" that part of the thread.....convenient.

[WSUfan]

But we are ignoring the first part of the theory. The team must rip thrugh conference play undefeated-for the good of the Valley. They must dominate the league- for the good of the Valley. They must win the conference tourney and then make a deep, bold run in the NCAA's- for the good of the Valley.

Like Gonzaga. Like UNLV. Like Marymount. You see, those schools made a joke of their conferences and made deep runs. How did it work for their conferences?

Well, there is the issue of seeding in the NCAA tourney. A good seed helps a team make the Final Four. If Indiana State had won the national title over Michigan State, would this have prevented WSU from making the Elite Eight a few years later? No. Would the Valley have been looked at as "ISU and the nine dwarfs"? No. With BU, SIU and WSU making the Sweet 16 in the last two years, if Creighton swept the Valley and won the national title, people would not equate the MVC with the West Coast Conference.

[MoValley John]

Well, there is the issue of seeding in the NCAA tourney. A good seed helps a team make the Final Four. If Indiana State had won the national title over Michigan State, would this have prevented WSU from making the Elite Eight a few years later? No. Would the Valley have been looked at as "ISU and the nine dwarfs"? No. With BU, SIU and WSU making the Sweet 16 in the last two years, if Creighton swept the Valley and won the national title, people would not equate the MVC with the West Coast Conference.

I completely disagree. If memory serves me right, at the time, Indiana State was kinda perceived that way. They were David trying to slay Goliath. The small school from the small conference, battling big, bad Michigan State. They were also perceived as a team with a single threat, Larry Bird. Wichita State going deep a few years later was equally isolated as a good team in a weak conference.

What would bring the Valley's stock up is to have multiple teams wn opening rounds every year and multiple Sweet 16's often. Combine that with a tough conference, top to bottom and you just shed the label. Wichita State and Bradley did it once, Creighton dropped the ball last year. Had Creighton at least beat Nevada (which they should have), the Valley, though maybe not considered a major, would already be viewed in a different light. But then again, if they get 3 or 4 wins in the Dance this year, next year, they will have moved up in the pecking order.

And it all has nothing to do with a team breezing through the league.

[Brave2001]

I completely disagree. If memory serves me right, at the time, Indiana State was kinda perceived that way. They were David trying to slay Goliath. The small school from the small conference, battling big, bad Michigan State. They were also perceived as a team with a single threat, Larry Bird. Wichita State going deep a few years later was equally isolated as a good team in a weak conference.

What would bring the Valley's stock up is to have multiple teams wn opening rounds every year and multiple Sweet 16's often. Combine that with a tough conference, top to bottom and you just shed the label. Wichita State and Bradley did it once, Creighton dropped the ball last year. Had Creighton at least beat Nevada (which they should have), the Valley, though maybe not considered a major, would already be viewed in a different light. But then again, if they get 3 or 4 wins in the Dance this year, next year, they will have moved up in the pecking order.

And it all has nothing to do with a team breezing through the league.

WE HAVE A WINNER!

A tough conference will produce tougher teams that will make it farther in the dance. You only get better by playing the best. To have a team play a bunch on patty cakes all conference season and roll out 18-0 and then get trounced once they meet UNC is conuter productive.

Conferences produce National Champions, teams dont. Thats why the BCS conferences get the benefit of the doubt. Those teams play gauntlet schedules for the most part. We want the MVC to be that TOUGH.

[WSUfan]

Mo: We'll just have to disagree then. On BCS sports boards, I have seen many comments like "They (MVC) have never won the national championship" and dismissing Sweet 16 appearances and only counting Final Four appearances as being important. Look at the Illinois board or the KU board or other BCS school boards. Without a good seed, it is hard to make the Final Four. A 15-3 MVC record will probably not impress the NCAA tourney committee enough for a top two or three tourney seed. Last year SIU had a RPI of 7, a 27-6 overall record and a 15-3 MVC record; they were seeded fourth!! How many times will a Valley school finish with a RPI of 7???

We could argue about the value of a high seed but I'll bet Dana or Chris or Jim would prefer a higher seed over a lower seed. The probability of winning increases as the seed decreases, except when going from 9 to 8.
Since the inception of the 64-team tournament in 1985 each seed # has played a total of 92 first-round games.
The #1 seed has beaten the #16 seed all 92 times (100%).
The #2 seed has beaten the #15 seed 88 times (96%).
The #3 seed has beaten the #14 seed 77 times (84%).
The #4 seed has beaten the #13 seed 74 times (80%).
The #5 seed has beaten the #12 seed 63 times (68%).
The #6 seed has beaten the #11 seed 63 times (68%).
The #7 seed has beaten the #10 seed 57 times (62%).
The #8 seed has beaten the #9 seed 42 times (46%).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCAA_Men's_Division_I_Basketball_Championship
Valley schools have been in the Final four 16 times and the Valley has won the national title 4 times (1945, 1946, 1961, 1962) and lost the championship 5 times (1949, 1950, 1963, 1973, 1979).

I completely disagree. If memory serves me right, at the time, Indiana State was kinda perceived that way. They were David trying to slay Goliath. The small school from the small conference, battling big, bad Michigan State. They were also perceived as a team with a single threat, Larry Bird. Wichita State going deep a few years later was equally isolated as a good team in a weak conference.

You have an interesting memory since Valley teams played in the Final Four in 1969 (Drake), 1972 (Louisville), 1973 (Memphis State), 1975 (Louisville) and 1979 (Indiana State). If this was considered a weak conference, I wish the Valley was a weak conference right now!!

[WSUfan]

WE HAVE A WINNER!
who thinks that a conference that had 4 teams in the Final Four in the 1970s was considered a "weak conference" at that time. Your idea of a "winner" is a little different than mine but ... as long as you're happy.

[MoValley John]

.......

You have an interesting memory since Valley teams played in the Final Four in 1969 (Drake), 1972 (Louisville), 1973 (Memphis State), 1975 (Louisville) and 1979 (Indiana State). If this was considered a weak conference, I wish the Valley was a weak conference right now!!

I was only going back as far as 1979 Indiana State. Being in my mid-40's I remember the teams you posted, and I even vaguely remember Drake's run. That said, the Valley changed dramatically during the 70's, what the Valley is today is hardly what the Valley was in the 50's, 60's or early 70's. Wouldn't it be great to still have Oklahoma A&M, Kansas, Louisville, StL, Memphis State and others still in the fold! The Valley would be a world beater!

Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your perspective, the NCAA was changing drastically in the late 60's through the 70's. Television money was seeping into decisions. The bigs separated from the smalls, the haves parted from the have nots. The parting culminated with 1-AA football. Yes, the perceived big boys left the little guys behind in like 1977 or 78. The Valley wasn't included. So you can go back as far as you want, but my point about the perception of Indiana State and the Valley still stands. Just ask Louisville why they left.

[WSUfan]

Mo: Why the CYA? Why not accept that you were wrong? Do we need to look up old facts?

They were also perceived as a team with a single threat, Larry Bird. Wichita State going deep a few years later was equally isolated as a good team in a weak conference.

Carl Nicks, Indiana State 1977-80 2-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; All-American (1980)

Lynbert "Cheese" Johnson, Wichita State 1975-79 3-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; All-American (1979)

Antoine Carr, Wichita State 1980-83 4-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; All-American (‘83); MVC Hall of Fame; ‘83 MVC Player of the Year

Cliff Levingston, Wichita State 1979-82 3-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team, NBA

Roger Phegley, Bradley 1974-78 2-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; All-American (1978); 1977 MVC Player of the Year

Mitchell Anderson, Bradley 1979-82 4-time all-MVC; 3-time First Team; All-American (1982); MVC Hall of Fame; No. 5 MVC scoring

Lewis Lloyd, Drake 1979-81 2-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; 2-time MVC Player of the Year (1980, 1981)

Benoit Benjamin, Creighton 1982-85 2-time all-MVC; 2-time First Team; 2-time All-American (1983, 1984); No. 1 career blocks

Xavier McDaniel, Wichita State 1981-85 3-time all-MVC; 3-time First Team; All-American (1985); MVC Hall of Fame; 2-time MVC Player of the Year (1984, 1985); No. 8 MVC career scoring; No. 2 MVC career rebounding

Later on: Hersey Hawkins, Bradley 1984-88 3-time all-MVC; 3-time First Team; 3-time All-American (1986, 1987, 1988); MVC Hall of Fame; 2-time MVC Player of the Year (1987, 1988); National Player of the Year (1988); 1988 MVC Tournament MVP; No. 1 MVC career scoring; No. 3 MVC career steals

After looking at this, I guess I have to agree with you. Indiana State had nobody but Larry Bird. Bradley, Drake and WSU had no good players from 1977-1980 when Indiana State was the only good team after Louisville and Memphis left. It was all downhill after 1978; so what if WSU was ranked #1 in the early 1980s? No good players and no good teams. It's so sad and nobody would wish to join the Valley. Still, I found this blog interesting: http://asideorderoffries.wordpress.com/category/missouri-valley-conference/

[MoValley John]

I never said no good players and no good teams, don't put words in my mouth. The Valley, as a whole, was perceived as weak, it isn't today, but not because of a couple of Sweet 16's, because of the overall competition, overall bids, wins vs. the bigs etc. Not just one team, not having a hot team every other year or so, not having an occasional Larry Bird or X-Man, but having all of your teams producing, every year. ISU knocking off Butler, SIU knocking off Indiana, Creighton winning the Guardians, twice, Wichita State and Bradley going to the S-16 in the same year and SIU's overall impressive resume. SIU alone doesn't scare other conferences, SIU alone hasn't bouyed the Valley, everything has. Best for the Valley would be for all of the teams to win out of conference. All of the teams to have marquee wins, year after year.

Teams and players do stand out even in "weak" conferences. Remember Marymount, remember UNLV? See Gonzaga and Memphis today. They are currently in leagues that are perceived as weak. They are doing for their conferences exactly what you said would be be best for the Valley, but the perception of their overall conferences haven't changed. Your scenario is just as bogus today as it was last fall.

Face it, you challenged Dawgie and answered- he nailed you with this old thread. You got POwned. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

[dakyne]

doublejay,

Find the common element and you've found the problem.

Hilarious--good one, dja.

doinitsalukistyle,

Good summary.

(some) WSU fans are like the playground bully--they're comfortable picking on other kids until a bigger kid comes along.:salukis:

[shockball]

I didn't see any mention of Tulsa in the discussion. Nolan Richardson was an effective coach. The Golden Hurricane had several NBA players in the early 80's. Steve Harris and Paul Pressey come to mind. Bruce Vanley was a monster.

Benedictine?

[MoValley John]

Benedictine?


Don't ask, it's not what you think. It's in Illinois. Doinit is a dick.

[Cdizzle]

if you hate it so much...why are you posting.

He was fulfilling his obligatory role as the poster who summarizes the repetetive nature of VT pissing matches. And as it would appear also facilitating an opportunity for you to get in another last word.

The real question now on everyone's minds....have i just become a third party facilitator?

[doinit salukistyle]

Don't ask, it's not what you think. It's in Illinois. Doinit is a dick.

If I were a betting man, when you went there, they werent even good enough to call themselves a University at the time...the truth is coming out, might as well have gone to devry techincal institute in dupage county

[doinit salukistyle]

He was fulfilling his obligatory role as the poster who summarizes the repetetive nature of VT pissing matches. And as it would appear also facilitating an opportunity for you to get in another last word.

The real question now on everyone's minds....have i just become a third party facilitator?

Cdizzle, how do you get your name? it confuses me...i think carbondale as one of its nickname is c'dale...but judging by your "wsu bias" that isnt the case, I'm just a caveman, my primative mind can't match your sophisticated ways

[WSUfan]

Mo: You are arguing the subjective point that
The Valley, as a whole, was perceived as weak
and you are arguing that I am "putting words in your mouth." With respect to the first point, we could argue forever about a subjective issue. You have not given evidence that the Valley was "perceived as weak" but you simply wish people to accept your statement as fact.

As evidence that the Valley is "perceived" as weaker now than it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I suggest that you look at the number of MVC All-Americans and ranked MVC teams there were from 1975-1985 and compare this with the number of MVC All-Americans and ranked MVC teams there were from 1997-2007; conferences which are respected are more likely to have players who receive All-American awards and teams which are ranked in the polls.

As for putting words in your mouth, you wrote
They were also perceived as a team with a single threat, Larry Bird.
If this were true, then Carl Nicks would not have been 2-time all-MVC, 2-time First Team and an All-American in 1980.

As for your comment
You got POwned. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: I hope the other readers on VT will notice that you have not offered even one shred of evidence in support of your claims. If you trust wikipedia articles (which are never wrong :lol: ), you can find at least one person who agrees with you (unless you edited the wiki :doh: :lol: ). If you wish to use as evidence the number of MVC invites to the NCAA tourney now and then, you need to state the numbers and consider the entire tourney invite dynamic; for example, why the RPI was introduced.

Finally, "perceptions" are so subjective that we will likely never agree. My perception is that you are an "outsider" to the MVC who has no loyality to any Valley team and who just enjoys playing here (i.e. a troll). Prove me wrong.

In some sense, you are trashing the history of the Valley and some CU or SIU fans, for example, are agreeing with you because they are more interested in opposing WSU fans than in thinking about your actual message. I would still accept being a "weak" conference with two Final Four teams every 10 or 11 years (ala 1969 Drake, 1979 Indiana State) over the "not quite as weak" conference you claim the Valley has become.

[XSaluki]

[brings back popcorn and sits while anxiously awaiting next battery of interesting but selective facts]
</brings>

[MoValley John]

Since we all know that Southern Illinos is a near concensus favorite to win the Valley, has been to two Sweet 16's twice in the last decade and has established a powerhouse recruiting pipeline, I think it's time the Valley realized what's best and merely lay down and let them steamroll through the conference. Afterall, we all know it would be best for the Valley. I can't think how much it would raise the Valleys' profile to see one team wipe out everybody else. It would make for some exciting games as well.

Is everyone in agreement? Get ready for the big laydown!

[MoValley John]

Mo: You are arguing the subjective point that

and you are arguing that I am "putting words in your mouth." With respect to the first point, we could argue forever about a subjective issue. You have not given evidence that the Valley was "perceived as weak" but you simply wish people to accept your statement as fact.

As evidence that the Valley is "perceived" as weaker now than it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I suggest that you look at the number of MVC All-Americans and ranked MVC teams there were from 1975-1985 and compare this with the number of MVC All-Americans and ranked MVC teams there were from 1997-2007; conferences which are respected are more likely to have players who receive All-American awards and teams which are ranked in the polls.

As for putting words in your mouth, you wrote

If this were true, then Carl Nicks would not have been 2-time all-MVC, 2-time First Team and an All-American in 1980.

As for your comment
I hope the other readers on VT will notice that you have not offered even one shred of evidence in support of your claims. If you trust wikipedia articles (which are never wrong :lol: ), you can find at least one person who agrees with you (unless you edited the wiki :doh: :lol: ). If you wish to use as evidence the number of MVC invites to the NCAA tourney now and then, you need to state the numbers and consider the entire tourney invite dynamic; for example, why the RPI was introduced.

Finally, "perceptions" are so subjective that we will likely never agree. My perception is that you are an "outsider" to the MVC who has no loyality to any Valley team and who just enjoys playing here (i.e. a troll). Prove me wrong.

In some sense, you are trashing the history of the Valley and some CU or SIU fans, for example, are agreeing with you because they are more interested in opposing WSU fans than in thinking about your actual message. I would still accept being a "weak" conference with two Final Four teams every 10 or 11 years (ala 1969 Drake, 1979 Indiana State) over the "not quite as weak" conference you claim the Valley has become.

Perception is reality in the eye of the beholder. The Valley was weak because it was perceived, by outsiders to the conference, as weak. There were perceived strong teams within the perceived small, less than stellar conference. However, it's all perception. Here is a fact to chew on, Tulsa came in second in the conference in 1980. Only had 7 losses, yet was relegated to the NIT, which they won. Even in the era of a 48 team field, would a second place finisher in a perceived strong conference have been sent to the NIT?

But yes, I'm on board with your plan, GO SIU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Cdizzle]

Since we all know that Southern Illinos is a near concensus favorite to win the Valley, has been to two Sweet 16's twice in the last decade and has established a powerhouse recruiting pipeline, I think it's time the Valley realized what's best and merely lay down and let them steamroll through the conference. Afterall, we all know it would be best for the Valley. I can't think how much it would raise the Valleys' profile to see one team wipe out everybody else. It would make for some exciting games as well.

Is everyone in agreement? Get ready for the big laydown!

If a steamroll involves clearing 60 points on a regular basis, I might give it consideration.

[DawgieStyle]

posters aren't giving you a hard time because you are using facts, posters are giving you a hard time becase you said THIS in the original "best for the valley" thread.

Sweep the Valley and then an NC. That would be amazing indeed.

Also, if WSU swept the Valley, it would hurt what you are trying to do. Any major/strong conference should be able to make the future NC lose a couple.

I think an NC would be way easier than sweeping the Valley (this year). How funny is that.


that statement is what got you in trouble and why MVJ doesn't need any facts right now to argue with you. You provided no facts then.

You are trying to use facts NOW, to rationalize your bogus statement then. People do this all the time, but don't ignore the fact, that this is what you are doing.

[WSUfan]

Since we all know that Southern Illinos is a near concensus favorite to win the Valley, has been to two Sweet 16's twice in the last decade and has established a powerhouse recruiting pipeline, I think it's time the Valley realized what's best and merely lay down and let them steamroll through the conference. Afterall, we all know it would be best for the Valley. I can't think how much it would raise the Valleys' profile to see one team wipe out everybody else. It would make for some exciting games as well.

Is everyone in agreement? Get ready for the big laydown!

Actually, if SIU could do this AND win the national title or, at least, get to the Final Four, then I think this would be good for the Valley.
I have never said that a MVC team should "lay down" and let someone sweep the Valley; my actual post is given below. If SIU is good enough to sweep the MVC, with the other Valley teams doing their best to beat the ugly dogs, and good enough to win 4+ games in the NCAA tourney, then this will be good for all Valley teams in the long run in my opinion.

Looking over other sports message boards, I see things like (i.e. not direct quotes but the intent):

The MVC will not be a major conference until they appear regularly in the Final Four for several years (e.g. 4 or 5 or 6 or 8 or 500 years)

The "midmajors" have not won a national title in the last 20 (or 30) years. UNLV is not a midmajor.

These opinions may be (probably are) shared by many on the NCAA Selection committee. The best quick way for the Valley to become major is for WSU to sweep the Valley, get a #1 seed and win the NC for the Valley.

Fans of other schools will not like this idea and will be unhappy if WSU beats them. However if WSU wins the NC, the Valley will probably be considered for 4 or 5 at large bids to the tourney in the future; I think 3 at large bids may be our maximum right now. Just my thoughts at the moment.

[DawgieStyle]

Actually, if SIU could do this AND win the national title or, at least, get to the Final Four, then I think this would be good for the Valley.
I have never said that a MVC team should "lay down" and let someone sweep the Valley; my actual post is given below. If SIU is good enough to sweep the MVC, with the other Valley teams doing their best to beat the ugly dogs, and good enough to win 4+ games in the NCAA tourney, then this will be good for all Valley teams in the long run in my opinion.

yah, how'd making the final 4 work out for George Mason and the CAA?

Anybody consider them a major conf. now? :no:

Then there is gonzaga and their bogus conf. Any help there? :no:

your asking for one elite conference team to elevate the status of entire conference....its not gonna happen...its never happened, heck take a quick history exam...gonzaga and george mason.

PS...this is 2007, not 1978....things change...in today's climate, as evident by recent events, one team can not change power rating of a conference.

[WSUfan]

Perception is reality in the eye of the beholder. The Valley was weak because it was perceived, by outsiders to the conference, as weak. There were perceived strong teams within the perceived small, less than stellar conference. However, it's all perception. Here is a fact to chew on, Tulsa came in second in the conference in 1980. Only had 7 losses, yet was relegated to the NIT, which they won. Even in the era of a 48 team field, would a second place finisher in a perceived strong conference have been sent to the NIT?

But yes, I'm on board with your plan, GO SIU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

All-American Awards are also based on perception. Why wasn't Xavier McDaniel selected as an All-American in 1984? Objectively he deserved such an award; he was MVC Player of the Year in 1984 and Benoit Benjamin was an All-American in 1984, for example. The reason might have been that WSU was on probation and WSU was not well respected at that time. Awards are often based on subjective criteria, not objective criteria. The number of MVC All-American Awards is a reflection of how the Valley is perceived.

However, it's all perception. Here is a fact to chew on, Tulsa came in second in the conference in 1980. Only had 7 losses, yet was relegated to the NIT, which they won. Even in the era of a 48 team field, would a second place finisher in a perceived strong conference have been sent to the NIT?
Is the selection process now the same as the selection process used in 1980? .... No?

In 1963, Cincinnati was the National Runner Up (to Loyola, Illinois) but in 1964 Cincinnati wasn't even invited to the NCAA tourney; WSU was. In 1965, WSU was in the Final Four but in 1966 Cincinnati was invited to the dance and WSU was not. When you compare the record of NCAA invitations, you need to understand the history of the tourney. To quote a post on sportingnews.com, "Who remembers the National Invitational Tournament in post-season college basketball. There was a time when teams would skip the NCAA playoff for the more prestigious NIT." Things change with time; you have to know the history and context before you evaluate things like