Roundtree recommitts

[Dawgbit]

Is there such a word? At any rate the stacked 2008 SIU class is once again intact.

[Clawinball]

I guess he findly got over his cold feet itis! :fear: :bears:

[MikeKennedyRulz]

Guess he couldn't find anything better.

[Aegyptus]

Do we have that on anything better than a rumor on Salukitalk? That is the only place I have seen it at this point.

[Webersback]

Article in the St. Louis Post Dispatch today...

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/sports/stories.nsf/othersports/story/085C7A775647E2AA86257365001714E9?OpenDocument

[azbirdfan]

I don't blame the kid for going through this process at all and in reality, I think this works out to SIU's advantage that he did this as opposed to not.

The world of college recruiting is so intense and the pressure put on these kids is extreme. They're dealing with seasoned recruiting specialists giving hard selling techniques in order to get a commitment right away and they're just kids who can easily be taken advantage of.

I respect coach Lowrey for allowing him to weigh his options and be patient with him. The fact that he was allowed to see if the grass was greener and came back, to me, makes a very strong statement about the value of being at SIU.

Congrats on the recommitment of this kid, your 2008 class is intimidating to say the least!
:salukis:

[dakyne]

azbirdfan,

Good post. And coming from an IlSU fan, more props to you. And yes, SIU's 2008 class will be one of the best in the nation, not just the MVC.

Dillard is a top-3 pg out of Illinois, and a top-100 player nationwide.

Bocot was the best all-around guard offensively in Illinois in 2007 (prop. 48)...yes, some say he was more versatile scoring-wise than Derrick Rose, the top pg in 2007.

Booker is a top 50 player nationwide in the 08 class, possibly top-10 post player (29th best player in one scout service).

Roundtree wasn't in any top 150 lists, but was a consensus 3-star player, and probably should have been in top 150 lists. Some think he's the best recruit of SIU's 2008 class. He was St. Louis PD POY as a junior.


This may be SIU's best recruiting class ever--at least on paper. All 4 were pursued and/or offered by Big 10/Big 12 programs, and chose SIU instead. Having said that, Carlton Fay, an incoming freshman also turned down the Big 10 to come to SIU. He was allegedly the best post player in Illinois in the 07 class, ahead of Tisdale and Cole, two Illini freshmen.

The 2009 class CLo is working on may be just as strong, if not stronger.

[txsaluki05]

HUGE NEWS! If this is the abyss, i'm lovin it!

I see this class taking the next step in March, maybe even a few steps further. Is it November yet?

:salukis::salukis::salukis::salukis:

[Ricky Del Rio]

HUGE NEWS! If this is the abyss, i'm lovin it!

I see this class taking the next step in March, maybe even a few steps further. Is it November yet?

:salukis::salukis::salukis::salukis:

I'm thinking Final 4 or better for the Doggies.

Maybe even Final 1.

[iSASO]

How well did the recruiting class with Walt Frazier end up? Pretty good, I would say. Especially taking SIU's NCAA "national championship" into consideration.

It will be highly interesting to see if SIU's incoming class will equal Walt Frazier's class.

[txsaluki05]

I'm thinking Final 4 or better for the Doggies.

Maybe even Final 1.

I agree.

[Dawgbit]

How well did the recruiting class with Walt Frazier end up? Pretty good, I would say. Especially taking SIU's NCAA "national championship" into consideration.

It will be highly interesting to see if SIU's incoming class will equal Walt Frazier's class.
Congratulations, you have (again) professed your ignorance of that of which you speak.

Footnote- Mark (Turgeon is a great coach) Turgeon, attempted to recruit Dillard, after the peacock bailed, and after Dillard committed to SIU. Turgeon's comment to those affected, "oh, I did not know that he had committed to SIU". About what one would would expect from a former coach of SFU!! Appears the fingers are not the only thing that becomes slimy in :fear:Wichita.

[iSASO]

I'm holding out for an explanation of how this class, which has never set foot on a D-1 basketball floor is better than the class which featured Walt Frazier.

[Dawgbit]

And what exaclty, does this: "national championship" mean? You gotta problem with the archives?

[SubGod22]

I'm glad to hear that he will in fact be in the Valley. I liked what I saw of this kid in the Championship game last year.

[iSASO]

"And what exaclty, does this: "national championship" mean? You gotta problem with the archives?"

SIU fans are always willing to paint themselves in a corner over a couple of apostrophe's. I have no problem with the NCAA archives. I bet you do though.

[C0|db|00ded]

azbirdfan,

Good post. And coming from an IlSU fan, more props to you. And yes, SIU's 2008 class will be one of the best in the nation, not just the MVC.

Dillard is a top-3 pg out of Illinois, and a top-100 player nationwide.

Bocot was the best all-around guard offensively in Illinois in 2007 (prop. 48)...yes, some say he was more versatile scoring-wise than Derrick Rose, the top pg in 2007.

Booker is a top 50 player nationwide in the 08 class, possibly top-10 post player (29th best player in one scout service).

Roundtree wasn't in any top 150 lists, but was a consensus 3-star player, and probably should have been in top 150 lists. Some think he's the best recruit of SIU's 2008 class. He was St. Louis PD POY as a junior.


This may be SIU's best recruiting class ever--at least on paper. All 4 were pursued and/or offered by Big 10/Big 12 programs, and chose SIU instead. Having said that, Carlton Fay, an incoming freshman also turned down the Big 10 to come to SIU. He was allegedly the best post player in Illinois in the 07 class, ahead of Tisdale and Cole, two Illini freshmen.

The 2009 class CLo is working on may be just as strong, if not stronger.

And yes, SIU's 2008 class will be one of the best in the nation, not just the MVC.


LMFAO!!

That's going in the signature line someday... :lol::lol::lol:


T


...:cool:

[BMull10]

LMFAO!!

That's going in the signature line someday... :lol::lol::lol:


T


...:cool:
Usually I don't respond to your crap since you're just a baiter anyways but SIU's class was already rated as a top 16 class when the early rankings came out a few weeks ago.

[MoValley John]

Usually I don't respond to your crap since you're just a baiter anyways but SIU's class was already rated as a top 16 class when the early rankings came out a few weeks ago.

I didn't know that they released a "Top 16" recruiting poll. Where did they finish? 11?

[BMull10]

I didn't know that they released a "Top 16" recruiting poll. Where did they finish? 11?
Rivals actually came out with a top 15 list a few weeks back. Originially they had SIU at 15 but they added another team in and dropped SIU to 16 I believe, but kept them on the list. Let me see if I can find the link.

EDIT: Got it http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=703090

[MoValley John]

Rivals actually came out with a top 15 list a few weeks back. Originially they had SIU at 15 but they added another team in and dropped SIU to 16 I believe, but kept them on the list. Let me see if I can find the link.

EDIT: Got it http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=703090

So there isn't a "Top 16"

[iSASO]

If SIU drops one more spot there will instantly become a "Top 17" list.

[BMull10]

If SIU drops one more spot there will instantly become a "Top 17" list.
I don't know, maybe you should ask the top writer for the top recruiting service out there. I guess he found it necessary to leave mention of SIU's class for a reason.

[underdawg2]

azbirdfan,

Good post. And coming from an IlSU fan, more props to you. And yes, SIU's 2008 class will be one of the best in the nation, not just the MVC.

Dillard is a top-3 pg out of Illinois, and a top-100 player nationwide.

Bocot was the best all-around guard offensively in Illinois in 2007 (prop. 48)...yes, some say he was more versatile scoring-wise than Derrick Rose, the top pg in 2007.

Booker is a top 50 player nationwide in the 08 class, possibly top-10 post player (29th best player in one scout service).

Roundtree wasn't in any top 150 lists, but was a consensus 3-star player, and probably should have been in top 150 lists. Some think he's the best recruit of SIU's 2008 class. He was St. Louis PD POY as a junior.


This may be SIU's best recruiting class ever--at least on paper. All 4 were pursued and/or offered by Big 10/Big 12 programs, and chose SIU instead. Having said that, Carlton Fay, an incoming freshman also turned down the Big 10 to come to SIU. He was allegedly the best post player in Illinois in the 07 class, ahead of Tisdale and Cole, two Illini freshmen.

The 2009 class CLo is working on may be just as strong, if not stronger.



Actually my latest issue of Future Stars magazine has Roundtree in their top 150--
there you go:original:

[iSASO]

BMull, I don't need to ask, I know why. It's because SIU has the "walk and talk" of a high-major program on every level from countless sellouts to facilities which are second-to-none. SIU is certainly more like Ohio State than any Valley school.

[XSaluki]

BMull, I don't need to ask, I know why. It's because SIU has the "walk and talk" of a high-major program on every level from countless sellouts to facilities which are second-to-none. SIU is certainly more like Ohio State than any Valley school.

Hang up your fuzzy yellow wig, put down your big foam 'shocker' hand, grab a brew and enjoy your accomplishment.

[Fraydog]

BMull, I don't need to ask, I know why. It's because SIU has the "walk and talk" of a high-major program on every level from countless sellouts to facilities which are second-to-none. SIU is certainly more like Ohio State than any Valley school.

Oh, the irony... a WSU fan making that sarcastic observation... after all you have said in the past, it's not really surprising. However, it is funny to see you come unglued. :grin:

[MSNSaluki]

I'm not gonna piss on the party of my Saluki brethren who follow recruiting religiously.

However, I can't get excited about anybody until 1) they have actually signed a national letter of intent with SIU and 2) they actually step on the floor during a Saluki game.

[Aegyptus]

I'm not gonna piss on the party of my Saluki brethren who follow recruiting religiously.

However, I can't get excited about anybody until 1) they have actually signed a national letter of intent with SIU and 2) they actually step on the floor during a Saluki game.

At this point, I think Roundtree is coming. I can't see him decommitting twice. Since Roundtree is coming, Booker is going to keep his promise too which has been solid from the beginning. At this point, the question is not whether SIU is going to have a great recruiting class, it is whether SIU is going to have a top 10 class in the nation if Kuric or Crittle commit, which are both three star players. I think both of those are going elsewhere (probably Louisville and Oregon, respectively), and I am not totally sure we even have scholarships for these players, but both have SIU on their final lists. For Kuric, it is SIU or Louisville.

Anyway, I get your point, and I am not a big fan or recruiting buzz either, but you certainly have to say that there is a difference in this type of recruiting class and the types of recruiting classes in the recent past, even under Weber and Painter. So, I do think some of the buzz is warranted. And for SIU to be in the top 15 (or 20 - although Indiana may drop on that list since one of their prized recruits has legal issues) is a great development.

[MikeKennedyRulz]

I'm not gonna piss on the party of my Saluki brethren who follow recruiting religiously.

However, I can't get excited about anybody until 1) they have actually signed a national letter of intent with SIU and 2) they actually step on the floor during a Saluki game.

and 3) They actually live up to the hype.

[XSaluki]

and 3) They actually live up to the hype.

Good point. 3) is only rule that is needed.

[Aegyptus]

Yes, of course, actually living up to the hype is the most important, but it is also important to develop a talent base that legitimately has a chance to win 7 straight games in March. Like it or not, the current talent pool in the Valley is not sufficient to get to Final Fours and Championship games. It is the talent pool that is the main problem. Our coaches are just as good, our team commitment is just as high, our fans are just as good, but at the end of the day it still helps to have a couple Brandon Rush type kids that can drive down the floor on their own and score a shot that gets you into the Elite 8 on a consistent basis. The reason Florida won the last two championships is because they have TALENT + COMMITMENT. SIU and other Valley schools have shown amazing levels of commitment and that commitment has carried us to some fantastic victories. But, as the teams get increasingly better, the lack of raw talent becomes increasingly apparent ... to the point that sheer commitment is not enough. Clearly, SIU was the more committed and harder working team against Kansas this past year ... but, we still lost. Why? Because Kansas was just that much more talented. No offense to a kid like Matt Shaw (who I really like and his hometown is close to my hometown), but the gap between him and Brandon Rush in terms of raw talent was miles wide. These new recruits have the ability to narrow that talent gap considerably across the board. Then with similar levels of commitment as we have seen from SIU in the past, we are going to win games like the Kansas game to get to Elite 8's and maybe even Final Fours.

[dakyne]

Aegyptus,

That lost post makes a lot of sense, and most college coaches would agree with you--you need talent go deep in the tournament on a consistent basis. But talent alone won't get you there--many other variables come into mind.

ISASO

As for SIU not having first-rate facilities, that will change soon...which may help in achieving more sell outs. I would disagree that you need both--St. Joe's facility isn't great--yet they were an Elite 8 and consensus #1 team for most of the regular season one year.

As for SIU's recruiting class, it's been rated 15 by one service already--before Roundtree recommitted. Are you SIU-haters going to dispute that?

And as far as recruiting doubters, you need to read the fine print. I already stated that all these recruiting assessments are done on paper. There is no way of predicting actual success. But empirically, it's been proven that the more highly-rated recruits a program gets, the better chance of those recruits elevating the programs. Some of them don't improve, while others develop into even better players. A case could be made where some recruits with little credentials step up (e.g. Funk, Falker, etc.), but from a team's perspective, a coach has a better chance of fielding respectable teams if he can stockpile highly-rated recruits--it's a simple numbers game.

[dakyne]

isaso,

Frankly, you can have your consistent sellouts--I'd rather have championships and deep runs into the NCAA's. Hell, I'd rather have a one-and-done than what WSU has accomplished in the last 20 years--except for one Sweet 16 season.

At one point, I actually felt pity for your fans, but a couple of them have managed to thwart that with their bitter, nonsensical babble.

[dakyne]

coldblooded,

Laugh all you want, but you'd be alone. Every analyst who saw Booker play has agreed he's been the biggest sleeper of his class.

Barring injuries, he's one of the top 20 PF's--by consensus.

If you want a less biased opinion on an apples to apples comparison, why don't we start a poll on two topics:

1) Is the SIU program entering an abyss?
2) Is WSU entering an abyss?
3) Which programs are in better shape, considering returnees, incoming freshmen, and 2008 and 2009 recruits?

If you want to narrow it down to just WSU and SIU on item 3, just have fans of the other 8 programs participate. At this point, it appears a bit one-sided, dontcha think? New developments can change the fortunes of any program, but I'm not gonna bet my last dollar against the Salukis.

[MSNSaluki]

and 3) They actually live up to the hype.

I won't worry about 3 for a couple of years.:original:

[Dawgbit]

coldblooded,

Laugh all you want, but you'd be alone. Every analyst who saw Booker play has agreed he's been the biggest sleeper of his class.

Barring injuries, he's one of the top 20 PF's--by consensus.

If you want a less biased opinion on an apples to apples comparison, why don't we start a poll on two topics:

1) Is the SIU program entering an abyss?
2) Is WSU entering an abyss?
3) Which programs are in better shape, considering returnees, incoming freshmen, and 2008 and 2009 recruits?

If you want to narrow it down to just WSU and SIU on item 3, just have fans of the other 8 programs participate. At this point, it appears a bit one-sided, dontcha think? New developments can change the fortunes of any program, but I'm not gonna bet my last dollar against the Salukis.

4)How many players transferred from their respective programs this year. What would ANY player in his right mind be thinking in leaving SFU, the next SIU?:banana:

[Divergence]

1) Is the SIU program entering an abyss?

I got to give SIU credit, they have taken some hits with HC, that for most schools would have set them back. IMO, the reason why they have succeeded to this point has been because every new coach didn't come in and change the system. They just kept it going. That has kept a continuity going.


2) Is WSU entering an abyss?I think the ability to hire Marshall answers that question. This is not a Cohen hire that sent the WSU program to the Abyss.

3) Which programs are in better shape, considering returnees, incoming freshmen, and 2008 and 2009 recruits?Interesting question. I think it's impossible to really say anything definitive about future recruits until you actually see them in action.

I think WSU has shown they are going to invest in the program both in facilities and coaching staff.

That question really remanins unanswered at SIU. Is SIU really going to step up and compensate their coaching staff the going market?

Is SIU going to invest in the facilities?

Will the SIU community step up and fill their house?

[Carrcar]

4)How many players transferred from their respective programs this year. What would ANY player in his right mind be thinking in leaving SFU, the next SIU?:banana:
Well, Turgeon said, "Wichita is a great place to be from....bye." http://bestsmileys.com/waving/3.gif

[Ricky Del Rio]

Well, Turgeon said, "Wichita is a great place to be from....bye." http://bestsmileys.com/waving/3.gif

By any chance, do you have a college degree?

[WSUbballer]

4)How many players transferred from their respective programs this year. What would ANY player in his right mind be thinking in leaving SFU, the next SIU?:banana:

Numbnuts, it's called a coaching change? I know you're familiar with these and the things associated with them, being a fan of Southern Illinois University...

[Chairman of the Boards]

By any chance, do you have a college degree?

Great question RDR... I'll bet the farm the answer is NO! :no:

[Dawgbit]

Numbnuts, it's called a coaching change? I know you're familiar with these and the things associated with them, being a fan of Southern Illinois University...

I thought "the next SIU" added a nice touch, eh?

Doubt that it will ever happen though.:no:

[DawgieStyle]

what's the big deal.

Can't everyone simply agree that on PAPER SIU has an awesome recruiting class....and give props where they are due.

and can't we ALSO agree....

that it doesn't mean squat until they actually play a game.

[dogdays]

I would have hoped that as Saluki fans we would have seen enough of WSU's bluster about recruiting over the past few years that we wouldnt do the same thing...games are won and lost on the floor...ratings dont mean squat. Lets play the games.

[WSUbballer]

I thought "the next SIU" added a nice touch, eh?

Doubt that it will ever happen though.:no:

I take that as an insult to be dubbed "the next SIU".
Doubt that'll ever happen? It will never happen, thank God.

[doinit salukistyle]

yeah I would hate winning either the mo valley regular season or tourney 6 years in a row, making the tourney each year...make the sweet 16 twice in a 6 year span...host gameday, have a great home field advantage....etc

I would much rather win in cross country in volleyball...you are absolutely right

[WSUbballer]

yeah I would hate winning either the mo valley regular season or tourney 6 years in a row, making the tourney each year...make the sweet 16 twice in a 6 year span...host gameday, have a great home field advantage....etc

I would much rather win in cross country in volleyball...you are absolutely right

in baseball, an all-sports trophy, blah, blah, blah...

You guys play on a field? That explains all the turkey and pheasant hunters all decked out in their neon orange, gun holsters on their sides, and rooting on them Salukis in the stands. Yeehaw!

[MoValley John]

You guys play on a field? That explains all the turkey and pheasant hunters all decked out in their neon orange, gun holsters on their sides, and rooting on them Salukis in the stands. Yeehaw!


Even though this is the basketball forum, it is football season and he may have been referring to a home field advantage in football. Something Wichita State knows nothing about.

[WSUbballer]

Even though this is the basketball forum, it is football season and he may have been referring to a home field advantage in football. Something Wichita State knows nothing about.

We knew about it in the 60's, 70's, and early 80's. Maybe not now, but we do know a little about it. I saw the field reference mentioned in his slew of remarks made about the basketball accolades of the recent years, so one can only assume he was talking about basketball..

[brocks]

Man oh man . . . hope SIU and WSU keep barking about which is in the abyss . . . while that little school from Peoria just kinda sneaks on by! :naughty:

Anyhoo . . . This SIU class really is quite a gem on paper. AND . . . that helps the whole Valley. SIU doing great job ending the mindset that Big Ten recruits don't sign with Valley schools. And you're not alone. :naughty:

:valley:

[MoValley John]

And Bradley Fan fires a salvo!!!!! It's three fanbases in a battle royale!!!!

:chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair::chair:: chair::chair::chair:

[WSUfan]

Even though this is the basketball forum, it is football season and he may have been referring to a home field advantage in football. Something Wichita State knows nothing about.
We never lose football games anymore. How can you beat that for a home field advantage? :innocent:

[DawgieStyle]

:puke:We never lose football games anymore. How can you beat that for a home field advantage? :innocent:

[MSNSaluki]

I would have hoped that as Saluki fans we would have seen enough of WSU's bluster about recruiting over the past few years that we wouldnt do the same thing...games are won and lost on the floor...ratings dont mean squat. Lets play the games.

A voice of reason.

[lawdawg]

Now that Roundtree is in the fold, if Dillard can convince his AAU teamate Josh Crittle to come with him to SIU, Coach Lowery might have a top ten recruiting class at hand, which for the Valley would be incredible.

[dakyne]

divergence,

That question really remanins unanswered at SIU. Is SIU really going to step up and compensate their coaching staff the going market?

Is SIU going to invest in the facilities?

Will the SIU community step up and fill their house?

How long have you been asleep at the wheel? I guess you agreed with my other points, and disagreed here. I'll let you in on some little secrets:

1) CLO is probably paid more than Marshall--$750,000/year. This is triple what CLo made last year.
2) SIU is moving forward with renovating SIU Arena (as well as the football stadium)--2010 is the completion date we've been hearing.
3) SIU's attendance figures have been climbing for the last 6 years, and will continue to climb as the team continues to win and gain nationwide recognition. The new Arena will only help.

[dakyne]

As for the recruiting accolades, again it's all on paper and no one has a crystal ball. But I'd roll the dice with a top 20 recruiting class any day of the week against one that doesn't land in the top 20.

In defense of WSU fans, I don't recall anyone of them touting a top 20 recruiting class.

[Divergence]

I guess you agreed with my other points

No, that would be a wrong assumption. I either didn't really care about your points or I considered them just noise in the background.


1) CLO is probably paid more than Marshall--$750,000/year.

Yeah, I do have to retract that point. I forgotten that SIU did step up finally.

Marshall is making $750,000 per year plus incentives. There were some reports in the paper (I don't know how accurate they are) that with incentives it pushes a Million.

2) SIU is moving forward with renovating SIU Arena (as well as the football stadium)--2010 is the completion date we've been hearing.

Do they have molasses up there in SIU-C?

3) SIU's attendance figures have been climbing for the last 6 years

But SIU-C average increase over the period is running around 264 per year (except in 2002 when it jumped from a dismal 4,483 to a mediocre 6,423. That's pretty flat.

Interestingly CU and SIU attendance was almost the same in 2002. CU attendance has shown strong growth from 6,613 to 15,909. SIU-C has only moved from 6,423 to 7,743.

[dakyne]

divergence,

My info may be noise to you but at least it's correct, unlike your assumptions, which are flat out wrong. SIU's attendance is flat? Again, you're way offbase. Their attendance has risen each year since prior to 2002. And they are experiencing what looks to be at least a 25% rise in season tickets sales alone this year. And it's only early October.

According to SIU's official athletic website:

Season-ticket sales have already reached an all-time high. To date, 4,374 season-tickets have been sold, eclipsing last year's mark of 3,595.

In other words, none of your "facts" are correct, so you might as well retract almost your whole original post.

And a two-year renovation is considered "molasses"? How long did it take Koch to be renovated?

Interestingly CU and SIU attendance was almost the same in 2002. CU attendance has shown strong growth from 6,613 to 15,909. SIU-C has only moved from 6,423 to 7,743.

Gee, does the difference in seating capacity have anything to do with it? And the fact that new arenas tend to attract more fans? And according to the numbers you provided, that's a 21% increase. Not sure if algebra is taught differently in Wichita, but a flat slope implies 0% growth.

Your post just solidifies how some WSU fan interpret facts--they don't let it get in the way.

[MoValley John]

What is the capacity at SIU's arena?

[Aegyptus]

What is the capacity at SIU's arena?

Well, its probably a few less when ESPN Gameday comes to town wants to put their stage and equipment in the Arena for live national broadcasts.

[RoyalShock]

FWIW, it appears as though SIU is positioning itself as the class of the Valley for years to come - if this recruiting class pans out as Saluki fans hope, ticket sales and attendance rise and stay at near-sellout levels, and their arena renovation happens on schedule.

Should Creighton, WSU and Bradley be able to sustain in those areas the Valley's future will remain very bright!

[MoValley John]

Well, its probably a few less when ESPN Gameday comes to town wants to put their stage and equipment in the Arena for live national broadcasts.

Gameday doesn't affect seating or capacity. What is the capacity of your arena? Simple question.

[kyyle23]

FWIW, it appears as though SIU is positioning itself as the class of the Valley for years to come - if this recruiting class pans out as Saluki fans hope, ticket sales and attendance rise and stay at near-sellout levels, and their arena renovation happens on schedule.

Should Creighton, WSU and Bradley be able to sustain in those areas the Valley's future will remain very bright!

There is no room for unbiased positive outlooks for multiple teams on this website.

please take your refreshing attitude and move on, good sir


:lol::lol::lol:

[Webersback]

Capacity is a little over 9400. We renovated some upper bowl bleacher seats to make bigger seats available and that cut down the numbers from 9600 to 9400 plus.

[dakyne]

mvj,

Currently 9600+. That might change this year, as they reduce the number of seats to 9300, if I recall correctly (they are allegedly widening some seats).

Re GameDay, you could be wrong--it may impact seating capacity.

edit: webersback is right...what he said.

[siudog]

There are 2 sections that are going to wider seats... The original seats were made back in 1964 size wise... The capacity is around 9400 give or take a few seats... The game day crew will take over a section of bleachers and that will take out another 250 or so seats.... So for a sell out it would be 9400 and for game day it would be 9150... for Creighton... I heard that the season tickets were up to 4400 from last year at 3800.... The lower bowl is sold out and the upper bowl is going fast from what I heard... I would not be surprised that we end up with around 5000 season tickets sold....

:salukis:

[MoValley John]

Thank you.

[Divergence]

divergence,

SIU's attendance is flat? Again, you're way offbase. Their attendance has risen each year since prior to 2002.

Two points, never said SIU-C attendance was not rising. Just said the attendance is flat - meaning that there is not substantial growth relative to the product that has been on the floor. If you happy with 80% capacity of your arena - good for you.

2nd In the 90's, when your school is averaging only 4800+, there is only one direction you can go.

Here is the growth in average home attendance from 2002 to 2007.

2003 from 2002: +144 (+2.2%)
2004 from 2003: +131 (+2.0%)
2005 from 2004: +32 (+0.5%)
2006 from 2005: +561 (+8.3%)
2007 from 2006: +452 (+6.2%)

I call this flat. Now if SIU-C increases it's attendance 25% this year, then the growth would no longer be flat.


Season-ticket sales have already reached an all-time high. To date, 4,374 season-tickets have been sold, eclipsing last year's mark of 3,595This is suppose to impress me? WSU baseball almost sells more season tickets than that.

In other words, none of your "facts" are correct, so you might as well retract almost your whole original post.BS. You may not like my characterization but the fact remain, community support of SIU-C is still 2nd rate.

And a two-year renovation is considered "molasses"? How long did it take Koch to be renovated?Have they broken ground yet?

Best of my recollection WSU went real fast. They announced it, broke ground and had it finished in little more than a year.


Gee, does the difference in seating capacity have anything to do with it? So your argument is that if SIU-C arena held another 2,000 people then that would draw more fans...

:doh:

[dakyne]

divergence,

Two points, never said SIU-C attendance was not rising. Just said the attendance is flat - meaning that there is not substantial growth relative to the product that has been on the floor.

Like I said, you apparently flunked algebra. 21% growth over 5 years is not flat. It may not impress you, but it ain't flat. Maybe you would understand better if I made 21% more money than you for doing the same job. Would you accept that proposal as fair?

If you happy with 80% capacity of your arena - good for you.

No, but I am happy with the increase every year. But my happiness is irrelevant to your misstatement of facts.


2nd In the 90's, when your school is averaging only 4800+, there is only one direction you can go.


Wrong again--see Evansville's or InSU's attendance figures. It's pretty axiomatic that attendance suffers when a program struggles. Or best-case, it remains "flat".

Here is the growth in average home attendance from 2002 to 2007.

2003 from 2002: +144 (+2.2%)
2004 from 2003: +131 (+2.0%)
2005 from 2004: +32 (+0.5%)
2006 from 2005: +561 (+8.3%)
2007 from 2006: +452 (+6.2%)

Mathematically, a positive slope means an increase.

I call this flat. Now if SIU-C increases it's attendance 25% this year, then the growth would no longer be flat.


So by your definition, anything less than 8.3% increase is "flat", while anything more than 25% is "growth." Sounds a bit arbitrary.

Quote:
Season-ticket sales have already reached an all-time high. To date, 4,374 season-tickets have been sold, eclipsing last year's mark of 3,595
This is suppose to impress me? WSU baseball almost sells more season tickets than that.

No, it's supposed to state facts, something you can't seem to grasp with your language of opinion. You just said earlier 25% was considered growth. Now you say you're unimpressed. I don't think anybody gives a damn whether you're impressed or not.

Quote:
In other words, none of your "facts" are correct, so you might as well retract almost your whole original post.
BS. You may not like my characterization but the fact remain, community support of SIU-C is still 2nd rate.

Again, your opinion, not a fact. Do they teach critical thinking at WSU?

Quote:
And a two-year renovation is considered "molasses"? How long did it take Koch to be renovated?
Have they broken ground yet?

Best of my recollection WSU went real fast. They announced it, broke ground and had it finished in little more than a year.


No, they haven't broken ground yet. I recall a 2008 or 2009 start and a 2010 completion.

Quote:
Gee, does the difference in seating capacity have anything to do with it?
So your argument is that if SIU-C arena held another 2,000 people then that would draw more fans...

Ummm, yeah, it could make a slight difference if there are sellouts, which SIU has had a few in the most recent years. That's also a mathematical concept involving mean averages and maximum values.

Dude, you're getting buried--cut your losses while you can.

At the end of the day, a winning program usually has an accompanying healthy increase in attendance. A new arena also helps. SIU has one and will have both.

[Divergence]

Like I said, you apparently flunked algebra.

It's probably safe to say that I did not flunk algebra. Now maybe english, but not algebra.

21% growth over 5 years is not flat.

Your 21% growth over a 5 year period you state results only resulted in 1320 more tickets sold per game. WSU in one year increased their tickets sale by 1900.

It may not impress you, but it ain't flat. Maybe you would understand better if I made 21% more money than you for doing the same job. Would you accept that proposal as fair?

Here is the problem, you don't make the same as amount as me.

SIU-C doesn't have the same fan support as WSU. A little excercise:

SIU-C: 6,423 x 1.21 = 7,743 (over 5 year period)
WSU: 8,190 x 1.23 = 10,090 (1 year)

Wrong again--see Evansville's or InSU's attendance figures. It's pretty axiomatic that attendance suffers when a program struggles. Or best-case, it remains "flat".

Funny, WSU attendance has been better than SIU-C every year since 1993. Please explain why that is?

I don't think anybody gives a damn whether you're impressed or not.

Evidently it must concern you.



Again, your opinion, not a fact. Do they teach critical thinking at WSU?

Actually they did. I took these classes where they made me wear these uniforms. They had alot of labs outside. Best thing about it was after graduation I got an all expense paid tour of the world.


No, they haven't broken ground yet. I recall a 2008 or 2009 start and a 2010 completion.

I'm suprised we haven't see Dawgie drawings of this dog house then?

What happens if SIU-C falls into the abyss and C-LO goes to Texas A&M to be the DOBO for the Turgeonater? Will they cancel?



Ummm, yeah, it could make a slight difference if there are sellouts,

How slight? Please quantify.

which SIU has had a few in the most recent years.

Really, that's impressive. Is it anywhere close to the 15 sellouts that WSU had last year?

That's also a mathematical concept involving mean averages and maximum values.

Do you have the formula for calculating the "mean averages"?

You forgot to add mode, median, standard deviation, low, ...

Dude, you're getting buried--cut your losses while you can.

If I'm getting so buried, why would care?

At the end of the day, a winning program usually has an accompanying healthy increase in attendance.A new arena also helps.

Sound like your describing WSU and CU programs.

[dakyne]

divergence,

Your fundamental problem is that you can't differentiate between absolute values and relative values. I say SIU's attendance has grown over the last 6 years--you counter by saying it has been flat.

Then you use WSU as an example. Perhaps you should rephrase it as: SIU's attendance increase has been less than WSU's growth in attendance, and therefore, does not impress you.

But in your rush to sound impressive, you stepped on a land mine. The average attendance figures quoted are, by definition, the mean averages, not median, not mode, not standard deviation, or any other jibberish. So yeah, we are in agreement that you do lack English skills...if not math.

In your further attempt to impress with your math skills, you've disregarded what role I had in designing some of the most advanced military hardware at the time, and is still operational.

You hang on to the one thing you can--attendance. Look at the original topical question, and look at the results of the poll. Let me remind you that in a couple years, WSU's only advantage will disappear. At some point, WSU has to win more than once every 20 years. According to you, the whole world revolves around WSU. If SIU's attendance is increasing, all you have to add is that "well, our attendance is better than yours, ladeeda..." You sound like a schoolgirl who isn't getting enough attention. I don't see any CU fans playing that card. Why? Because as heated as the rivalry is, there is mutual respect among the two programs. Hell, I've even commended WSU's attendance figures, despite less-than-stellar results on the floor.

But that's OK--keep playing the attendance card. In a few years, it'll also end up being just another flimsy argument.

If I'm getting so buried, why would care?

And to answer your question, I don't care. I'm just bored and looking for better game.

[Divergence]

Your fundamental problem is that you can't differentiate between absolute values and relative values.

Really... I think you wrong. Could you give me a quiz. Maybe list some "absolute values" and some "relative value" and see if I can differentiate. I might surprise you.


I say SIU's attendance has grown over the last 6 years--you counter by saying it has been flat.

Ah, the mind of an amateur. I never disputed that SIU-C attendance hadn't grown - I just said it was flat. The term "flat" is a term used to describe the rate of change or slope. And example you might see in the newspaper:

All sectors posted slower or flat growth, with one of the worst hit the manufacturing sector, which expanded just 2.3%, steeply lower than the 19% growth in the preceding quarter last year.

Now let me graphically show you. If you notice, SIU-C slope - that would be "rise over run" is flat. Kind of like WSU's since they are now at capacity.

http://i23.tinypic.com/28vwra.jpg

Think of it this way - after going to pleasure town with Veronica, would you want to climb the CU mountain to get married or the SIU-C mountain?

Remember there will be "flutes playing and trombones and flowers and garlands of fresh herbs. And we will dance till the sun rises. And then our children will form a family band. And we will tour the countryside and you won't be invited."



But in your rush to sound impressive, you stepped on a land mine. The average attendance figures quoted are, by definition, the mean averages,

Mr. Rocket scientist, words have meaning. There is no such thing as the "mean averages". The "mean" is interchangeable with "average". They mean the same thing.


not median, not mode, not standard deviation, or any other jibberish.

I was actually making fun of you but I see that it went completely over your head. :innocent:


In your further attempt to impress with your math skills,

Actually, I could care less about impressing anybody - this is VT. Let me give you a hint - nothing that is said on here really matters.

you've disregarded what role I had in designing some of the most advanced military hardware at the time, and is still operational.

Cool, so you designed military hardware all by yourself? Please expand on this, I would love to know what military hardware you have designed - or is it classified?

BTW, I took a dookie on Air Force One (actually it was VC-25 since the president wasn't on board) - are you impressed? Shouldn't be. People of Wichita get to ride on the Presidents airplane all the time.

I've even commended WSU's attendance figures, despite less-than-stellar results on the floor.

Yeah, that Sweet 16 appearance is really something WSU fans are really disappointed in. WSU has sure let the valley down.

Do you hear it? It's the Abyss and it's calling you.

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you sit this next one out, stop talking for a while.

[dakyne]

divergence,

Mathematically, and pardon for the droning on, since you can't grasp basic math, an increase--no matter how slight or small, is not flat. Again, it might be flatter relative to CU's attendance growth, but it's not flat. So yes, you would missed that algebra question.

The operative word is "relative". And if SIU's arena had a larger capacity, their "mean" average would have been higher, however slight, as they did have a few sell-outs. There is not one mathematical untruth about what I have repeated here, yet you still want to twist it to satisfy whatever agenda you have.

I point out the inaccuracy you gave in defining the wrong type of "average", and you try to somehow use that against me? You're the dip **** that brought up the other wrong types of "average". I merely confirmed the correct terminology.

In your haste to compensate for your lack of gonads, you alluded to your job in a uniform, flying to all parts of the world, as if somehow that validates your intelligence.

uumm, yeah, so you're going to challenge my role in designing the electronics of the most advanced radar and weaponry in the world at the time? Of course, no one individual works on a project of that magnitude, there were many system designers, testers, and manucturers on those projects, and I had a hand in every step, from defining system requirements, to writing the microcode to test the units, and to troubleshooting the systems for final sell-off. BTW, some of those aircraft are in St. Louis today (hint). And yes, both programs were classied, but one of the programs is no longer, but at the time, one needed a secret clearance.

But that's not the point is it? The point is I have at least a cursory knowledge of basic math. Think Doppler, my friend, and the attendant signal processing that comes along with it. Unlike 99% of the world, I not only think in the time domain, I also can calculate in the frequency spectrum. And despite your impressive background, you still can't admit the fact that ANY growth in attendance nullifies it as flat growth.

I guess it hurts to lose the last branch you have to cling on to.

You apparently can't read either. Take a look at the results of the poll, generated by a WSU fan no less. But you know, you still have a chance to catch up. WSU could go 5 for 5 and tie SIU.

BTW, thanks for the graph. You just passed 5th grade math. I guess I should commend you since you took the time to graph it out, despite "not caring about trying to impress anybody on VT".

[salukibob]

Divergence, can you also add an analogy of the attendance analysis with the # of conference championships that these schools have had in this time period?! :innocent::salukis:

[dogdays]

I know the Shocker fans like to act like this doesnt matter but a little fact that certainly is one of the big reasons for the attendance difference is this.
Population for Wichita Ks. 600,000 plus
Population for Carbondale IL 25,000

There is now way you can make any logical argument about attendance with that big a difference in population.

So if one in 60 folks in Wichita go see the Shockers and one in 3.5 folks in Carbondale go see the Salukis does it mean that SIU actually blows WSU away in terms of support from the community? No, but it does show how you can make statistics say what ever you want. Dakyne, you nailed it.

[dakyne]

dogdays,

Yes, the ratio debate has been played out many times on here. I chose not to bring it up, because it's so obvious, but I guess WSU fans have selective memory-itis.

To be honest, in light of the perspective you provided, I'm surprised SIU is able to sell out ANY games. To sell out a 9600+ arena in a town of 25,00 residents and 20,000 students is an achievement in and of itself. Unfortunately, even some Saluki fans don't acknowledge that.

[Cdizzle]

I know the Shocker fans like to act like this doesnt matter but a little fact that certainly is one of the big reasons for the attendance difference is this.
Population for Wichita Ks. 600,000 plus
Population for Carbondale IL 25,000

There is now way you can make any logical argument about attendance with that big a difference in population.

So if one in 60 folks in Wichita go see the Shockers and one in 3.5 folks in Carbondale go see the Salukis does it mean that SIU actually blows WSU away in terms of support from the community? No, but it does show how you can make statistics say what ever you want. Dakyne, you nailed it.

apparently everyone in wichita was cloned yesterday. good to know. what a technological breakthrough.

[Divergence]

since you can't grasp basic math, an increase--no matter how slight or small, is not flat.

Oh, well you can lead horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Do you even have a engineering degree?


Again, it might be flatter relative to CU's attendance growth, but it's not flat.

Wait a second. Didn't you just say "an increase--no matter how slight or small, is not flat". Your now

OWNED

The operative word is "relative". And if SIU's arena had a larger capacity, their "mean" average

Here we go with the old "mean average" stuff again. Could please give me the formula for a "mean average" - I would like to impress all my friends with this new term.

I point out the inaccuracy you gave in defining the wrong type of "average", and you try to somehow use that against me?

You might want to phone a friend, because your really showing that your a fake - there is not "types" of averages (also called a "mean"). There is no such think as a "mean average".

uumm, yeah, so you're going to challenge my role in designing the electronics of the most advanced radar and weaponry in the world at the time?

Actually, I didn't challenge. I knew nothing about you except when you interjected it. I will only make fun of it because it's irrelevant, and I really question if any of it's true now.

you still can't admit the fact that ANY growth in attendance nullifies it as flat growth.

So tell me how in this quote below taken from a Fortune 500 company can be characterized as "flat" when it actually increased?

All sectors posted slower or flat growth, with one of the worst hit the manufacturing sector, which expanded just 2.3%, steeply lower than the 19% growth in the preceding quarter last year.


I guess I should commend you since you took the time to graph it out, despite "not caring about trying to impress anybody on VT".

It took 5 seconds to post it, and sometime a picture is worth more than words and provides irrefutable facts that SIU growth has been flat.

[dakyne]

divergence from reality,

Originally Posted by dakyne View Post
since you can't grasp basic math, an increase--no matter how slight or small, is not flat.
Oh, well you can lead horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Do you even have a engineering degree?

Yes, I do--in fact, I have two. Do you? What does that have anything to do with leading horses to water? It wouldn't matter cuz you're a jackass.:clap:


Quote:
Again, it might be flatter relative to CU's attendance growth, but it's not flat.
Wait a second. Didn't you just say "an increase--no matter how slight or small, is not flat". Your now

OWNED

What on earth r u talking about? You just quoted me saying the same thing--there is nothing inconsistent with what I've said. SIU's attendance has grown--it is definitely not flat. It may be interpreted as flatter relative to CU's attendance growth.

Quote:
The operative word is "relative". And if SIU's arena had a larger capacity, their "mean" average
Here we go with the old "mean average" stuff again. Could please give me the formula for a "mean average" - I would like to impress all my friends with this new term.


http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average

I had to differentiate between the different definitions of "average" since you managed to muddy it up. *** r u trying to prove--your ignorance?

Quote:
I point out the inaccuracy you gave in defining the wrong type of "average", and you try to somehow use that against me?
You might want to phone a friend, because your really showing that your a fake - there is not "types" of averages (also called a "mean"). There is no such think as a "mean average".

How am I fake? Because I told you what I did, after you asked? And because I correctly pointed out which definition of "average" is correct? BTW, you never defined what your career was, yet you have the gall to question whether I lied?

Quote:
uumm, yeah, so you're going to challenge my role in designing the electronics of the most advanced radar and weaponry in the world at the time?
Actually, I didn't challenge. I knew nothing about you except when you interjected it. I will only make fun of it because it's irrelevant, and I really question if any of it's true now.

Question all you want, you've been wrong along this whole thread. My point is that any ignoramus can find out what an increase is, even someone who learned remedial math, which you apparently haven't.

Quote:
you still can't admit the fact that ANY growth in attendance nullifies it as flat growth.
So tell me how in this quote below taken from a Fortune 500 company can be characterized as "flat" when it actually increased?

Quote:
All sectors posted slower or flat growth, with one of the worst hit the manufacturing sector, which expanded just 2.3%, steeply lower than the 19% growth in the preceding quarter last year.

That's purely semantics--2.3% growth (and it is growth) is flatter than 19% growth--duh. Just like 19% growth is flatter than 80% growth. But none of them are flat. In keeping it simple, any type of increase implies growth, which means it isn't flat. Maybe you think the whole world is flat since you live in Kansas. :-)

Quote:
I guess I should commend you since you took the time to graph it out, despite "not caring about trying to impress anybody on VT".
It took 5 seconds to post it, and sometime a picture is worth more than words and provides irrefutable facts that SIU growth has been flat.

You just contradicted yourself: you just said 19% growth is considered real growth, and SIU's attendance growth, at 21% over the last 5 years is considered "flat". I'll give you the difference in timing components, but one thing we can all agree, SIU's season ticket sales this year will exceed 25%. Is that flat, too?

It's easy to attack others while you hide behind a keyboard. So what uniform did you wear? Let me see, "divergence", nah, never mind, not sure any of us really wanna know...

[Divergence]

It wouldn't matter cuz you're a jackass.


Where you looking in a mirror when you wrote that? :innocent:

You just contradicted yourself: you just said 19% growth is considered real growth, and SIU's attendance growth, at 21% over the last 5 years is considered "flat".

Actually, I didn't say it all, I just cut an pasted a financial report. BTW, that 19% growth was over one year. SIU-C was over 5 or 6 years.

I'm sure if you asked Outpost nicely, he could probably help tutor you - he's a expert in those areas.

I'll give you the difference in timing components, but one thing we can all agree, SIU's season ticket sales this year will exceed 25%. Is that flat, too?

I think it's safe to say that if SIU-C attendance grows 15-25% this year, then you could say that the growth is no longer flat.

It's easy to attack others while you hide behind a keyboard.

You would know wouldn't you sport.:fear:

[BeeLine]

Dakyne, it would be merciful if you just let this end. It's become a quilty pleasure like watching a train wreck, when he started referencing money,education and world travel as somehow relevant to whatever obscure point he originally intended to make. You won the debate early, now it's just a public flogging.

[dakyne]

beeline,

Dakyne, it would be merciful if you just let this end. It's become a quilty pleasure like watching a train wreck, when he started referencing money,education and world travel as somehow relevant to whatever obscure point he originally intended to make. You won the debate early, now it's just a public flogging.

Beeline, you're an MSU fan, correct? As in, not a WSU or SIU fan. hmmmmm...

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with you--besides, it's no fun anymore.

And for those that care, SIU's season ticket sales have increased 22% this year compared to last and still climbing.

Besides, I've moved along, even giving outpost and other WSU fans some props for their steadfast loyalty, but they're more interested in smack. I guess I would too if my team was on the wrong end of the totem pole.

[Cdizzle]

beeline,



Beeline, you're an MSU fan, correct? As in, not a WSU or SIU fan. hmmmmm...

I'm afraid I'll have to agree with you--besides, it's no fun anymore.

And for those that care, SIU's season ticket sales have increased 22% this year compared to last and still climbing.

Allow myself to agree with......my....self. :doh: