Who do we kick out of the MVC...

[Lurking Dog]

...to make room for St. Louis? 'Just thought I'd be the one to get the thread started this year. :noexpression:

[Aegyptus]

I am happy to fan the flames ... from UrbanSTL (http://www.urbanstl.com/viewtopic.php?t=2136&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45):

Bernie and Randy had one of the higher-ups of the MVC on the radio yesterday and they talked for a few minutes about SLU's possible move to the MVC.
summary:
- The MVC would SERIOUSLY consider the addition of SLU.
- However, the MVC would not be interested in having 11 teams (like big 10/11) so it would likely need to be a 2 team addition.
- The geographic location of SLU would have no effect on the location of the MVC tourney. He basically stated that if that became an issue that they would block seats for individual teams similar to the way the big 12 does it.
- R. Majerus wants out of the A10. If SLU were to exit early, they would have to pony up the $1mil penalty.
- After the call, Bernie and Randy hypothetically speculated other teams that would be a good fit for the MVC: Butler, Dayton, Xavier made the list.

Bernie is Bernie Mikalasz and Randy I assume is Randy Karraker. As has been mentioned on here before Bernie is the most important sportswriter in Saint Louis and is growingly getting behind the idea of a SLU to MVC move. Karraker is one of Saint Louis' longest tenured radio personalities working at KMOX for many years. I did not hear the interview, so I do not know who the "higher up of the MVC is." Perhaps someone else heard the interview and can help out with that.

Of course, this conversation on here can wait until after the Dance ... but it is a conversation that both parties (SLU and MVC) seem increasingly willing to have.

[WSUfan]

Butler and SLU would be interesting. I would hate to lose the "home & home" in basketball but if that could be maintained, I'd find the idea interesting.

[RoyalShock]

Butler is a good geographic choice, but I would prefer Dayton (great fan support from what I've seen on TV). I just don't see Xavier moving from the A-10.

[Lurking Dog]

No one is suggesting that WSU leave for the good of our RPI? I'm "shocked."

[Lurking Dog]

I'd love to see Butler and Dayton, members of Drake's football league, join the MVC. However, Dayton will stick with Xavier, and vice versa.

I only mentioned St. Louis as a joke, but their Billikenesque coach might get them in.

:valley:

[Aegyptus]

I'd love to see Butler and Dayton, members of Drake's football league, join the MVC. However, Dayton will stick with Xavier, and vice versa.

I only mentioned St. Louis as a joke, but their Billikenesque coach might get them in.


Excellent use of Billikenesque. Short fat and mischievous. I will say I am not happy how Majerus treated his players this year. Pretty much after every loss he threw them under the bus. He did it again last week.

Yeah, Dayton and Xavier are a package. Either both or neither. For it to happen, I would need to happen all at once with Saint Louis, which is why to get them, I think we would need to immediately go to 14. I think Saint Louis (along with Creighton) could talk Xavier into the move and Dayton will do whatever Xavier does, so I certainly think it is possible, but it would be a major shift so it would take a while to do.

Maybe next week when Saint Louis plays its conference tournament in ... NEW JERSEY ... Bernie will write a column calling for SLU to join the Valley.

[numbr_9]

what about adding St. Louis, Butler, Dayton, & Xavier then going to a divisional league?

Personally, I like the league at 10. but adding those teams *could* seriously upgrade our bball "firepower".

[chuckywang]

The So Con plays 20 conference games. Why can't the MVC add 1 more team (or add 2, subtract 1) and still keep the home and home?

[shockball]

To hell with the St. Louis Billikens.

[NewEra]

what about adding St. Louis, Butler, Dayton, & Xavier then going to a divisional league?

Personally, I like the league at 10. but adding those teams *could* seriously upgrade our bball "firepower".

14 teams, you people are retarded!!!!! Seriously look at the A-10, how many teams do they have and how many get tourney bids?

12 would be absolute max and even that is going to ruin a lot of things. If you wanted to take all four you would need to boot 2 existing teams and who might that be?

Oh and lurking dog I think you were being sarcastic but seriously even after this year I would choose WSU over Drake for a league member.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

In six days, the two current Valley members with the longest NCAA droughts will be Missouri State and Evansville. Seems pretty clear which two schools should get the pink slips.

[Aegyptus]

what about adding St. Louis, Butler, Dayton, & Xavier then going to a divisional league?

Personally, I like the league at 10. but adding those teams *could* seriously upgrade our bball "firepower".

I think this is the most appealing option to me. I don't particularly like the divisions and I am not a huge fan of leaving 10, but adding those teams would make this a 3-5 bid league every single year. Hard to call that a mid-major; I am sure some will still try, but when the new look Valley consistently gets as many or more bids than the Big 10, it become pretty hard to sustain the argument that we are somehow lower classed.

I hate to lose the round robin format, but adding those teams would help with scheduling. We would not have to play as aggressive of out-of-conference schedules because we would have plenty of chances for big wins within the conference (2 of our teams would almost always be ranked) -- and on our home floors. I think it is a legitimate help with scheduling.

Dayton can't be too happy with the A-10 this year either. They are 20-9 with wins over Louisville and Pitt with an RPI of 36 and an SOS of 4, but probably are not going to make the Dance. If they were in the 14 team Valley with the same record (will be 21 wins after first round of tournament), I think they get in. That is the added power that such a conference expansion would have. Our teams that are just off the bubble right now (Creighton, SIU) would be on the bubble and our current bubble team(s) (Illinois State ... Dayton) would be locks.

[NewEra]

I think this is the most appealing option to me. I don't particularly like the divisions and I am not a huge fan of leaving 10, but adding those teams would make this a 3-5 bid league every single year. Hard to call that a mid-major; I am sure some will still try, but when the new look Valley consistently gets as many or more bids than the Big 10, it become pretty hard to sustain the argument that we are somehow lower classed.

I hate to lose the round robin format, but adding those teams would help with scheduling. We would not have to play as aggressive of out-of-conference schedules because we would have plenty of chances for big wins within the conference (2 of our teams would almost always be ranked) -- and on our home floors. I think it is a legitimate help with scheduling.

Dayton can't be too happy with the A-10 this year either. They are 20-9 with wins over Louisville and Pitt with an RPI of 36 and an SOS of 4, but probably are not going to make the Dance. If they were in the 14 team Valley with the same record (will be 21 wins after first round of tournament), I think they get in. That is the added power that such a conference expansion would have. Our teams that are just off the bubble right now (Creighton, SIU) would be on the bubble and our current bubble team(s) (Illinois State ... Dayton) would be locks.


Ok some simple math

2 BIDS OUT OF 10 TEAMS = 20%
3 BIDS OUT OF 14 TEAMS = 21.4%

OR

3 BIDS OUT OF 10 TEAMS = 30%
4 BIDS OUT OF 14 TEAMS = 28.6%

I think it's obvious that going to 14 teams would be a huge mistake, no higher percentage of teams in but a larger amount of teams on the bottom to make the league appear weaker than it really is.

I will say that by adding Butler, Xavier, Dayton, and St.louis you would certainly make it one strong league and maybe just maybe 5 teams a year would become the norm. Then you could almost argue for it.

[BDawgCarr]

In six days, the two current Valley members with the longest NCAA droughts will be Missouri State and Evansville. Seems pretty clear which two schools should get the pink slips.

Oh come on, even though msu hasn't made the tourney in awhile doesnt mean they don't deserve to be in the mvc. They bring a nice mix to the table. Usually finishing from mid to the top of the pack in the last 6 yrs. They create a little drama having some wins over the conf tops guys every so often.

I think MSU needs to stay. I don't have an argument for the Aces though, except they have been here for awhile and every conference needs a bottom dweller. Oh and I also like how you guys so easily convert(maybe its just a maroon thing) to saluki fans at the mvc tourney. And vice versa. :grin: When we arent playing eachother of course

Bring in two teams; I'm all for Butler, and I don't give a crap if it's SLU if we get Butler.

[SLUBillikens]

The MVC seems "right-sized" as it is. The A-10, with 14 teams, is too big, and I don't think you'd want a setup like that.

I don't know that Dayton and Xavier would necessarily have to be a package deal. Dayton left the old MCC for the Great Midwest Conference while Xavier stayed behind (reportedly, Cincinnati made a huge push to keep them out).

[Lurking Dog]

...seriously even after this year I would choose WSU over Drake for a league member.

Sorry man, it's all about what you've done lately.

Stay tuned for the 'Drake to the Big East' thread.

[Aegyptus]

That's the point. You don't go to 14 if you are adding weak teams (only a few on here speak of expansion with SDSU/NDSU). You only go to 14 if you add strong teams. I think Saint Louis, Butler, Xavier and Dayton are strong teams, none of which would be at the bottom of the conference. The bottom of our conference would stay the same ... essentially Evansville (sorry Aces, but you got to show up better that what happened this year). I don't think anyone believes Wichita is going to stay at the bottom and Indiana State showed serious signs of improvement this year. Now, everyone is going to argue that Saint Louis would be at the bottom, but that simply is not true. They finished with a winning record this year and that is in a transition year before Majerus gets his own kids in there. They will be a mid-tier team in the Valley at worst and if Majerus can turn it around, they could be at the top of the Valley.

Think about it, this year, a "down" year for the Valley elite teams (no Creighton, SIU, Bradley in the Dance) ... would have still seen 4-5 teams in if the expansion were real. Xavier (probably a 3-4 seed), Drake (probably a 4-5 seed), Butler (probably a 5-6 seed), Illinois State (probably a 10-11 seed) and perhaps Dayton (probably a 11-12 seed). In a year when none of the Valley regulars made the Dance, that is really damn good. Now, perhaps Xavier and Butler and Dayton are at the top of their games, but I don't think it is too much to assume that we can regularly expect 2 out of those 3 to make the Dance. Add that to the 2 the Valley gets regularly, and you have a minimum of 4 teams every year.

More, importantly, when you have 3 teams that get 6 seeds or higher, the chances of one of them making the Elite 8 (or even final four) are a lot damn better than 1 team with a seed like that. Not only would we get more seeds, but our chances of advancing further in the tournament are greatly increased.

The point is that this expansion (Butler, Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis) is adding elite teams (for our level and within our reach, obviously Memphis would be better, but because of football are out of reach). Butler and Xavier have shown a consistent ability not only to get to the Dance, but to get good seeds as well and to advance. Dayton and Saint Louis are not bad athletic schools and will challenge for Valley titles every once in a while, but would really add to the Valley's academic reputation (2 more law schools and 1 more med school), which is what I think is really behind our ability to lose the mid-major label. People just have a hard time saying a majority of our schools are "major" universities. Not so with Dayton and Saint Louis, which both are already "major" research universities.

When you have the chance to add 2 elite teams and 2 elite academic schools, I think you find a way to make that work. If some of the Valley teams are uncomfortable with the 14 team schedule and the increase in spending and everything else that goes along with adding elite programs ... go join the Mid-Con or Summit or whatever the hell it is called.

[jb399]

If the Valley does add SLU, how long the same people that wants them in so bad starts complaining they have a home court advantage in the conference tournament.

[kevinmitchell]

How does adding SLU make the Valley a better league? I'm not sure it does. Does it hurt? I don't know--but I don't see how it really helps.

[SLUBillikens]

If the Valley does add SLU, how long the same people that wants them in so bad starts complaining they have a home court advantage in the conference tournament.

The Scottrade won't be the Billikens' home court next year as they'll be playing their games on campus. And since they've played at the Scottrade, it's rarely provided much of a home court advantage. The Bills were seldom able to hold their practices there, and with the exception of a few seasons, the arena has usually been half full. 8,000-10,000 fans in the Scottrade Center makes it feel very empty.

[SycEm]

Going to 14 teams will really mess up the schedules in all the other sports also - and only helps the strength of the league in men's basketball. With that said, men's basketball should be the emphasis. Baseball (currently with 9 members) plays a 24 game conference schedule now. Softball plays a 27 game conference schedule. Both play a full 3 game series with every other league member and the NCAA limits the total number of allowable games in a year - so adding more conference games will hurt the RPI for members in these sports. Xavier doesn't offer softball, but all 4 being mentioned offer baseball. That would put both of those sports at 13. No idea what it does for soccer, volleyball, etc.

[goaces]

I seriously doubt Butler will leave the Horizon. Things have gone so well for them this last decade the move would'nt make a lot of sense. I'm quite sure they know at large bids in the Valley would be easier to come by, and their attendance would soar. But they "own" thier league and I think that is all that matters to them.

As for SLU, RM wants it, but I'm not sure how many others do. The program has such an inflated ego (for reasons known only to God) some SLU administrators and allumni don't like the idea of rubbing elbows with places such as Carbondale, Omaha, Peoria, and the like. Fact is the Valley and the Billikins do make a lot of sense for each other. The MVC would put a huge stipulations on them in they were to join.

[TheAsianSensation]

Remember, folks, half the battle here is exposure and markets.

St Louis - adds the St Louis market
Butler - adds the Indianapolis market

Both those teams are secondary in their market to other teams (college or pro). Right now we have a system where we have 10 individual markets where the Valley team is king, or near king.


Still, though, Butler is worth the addition. I'm all for adding them and any random school.

I don't think Xavier and Dayton will separate.



In the end....let's not expand. Let's wait for the Big East to finally blow up so we can gobble up Marquette and DePaul :naughty:

[Lurking Dog]

Time for the obligatory discussion of divisions. I think 12 teams might be realistic. 14 is not.

West of the River Division
Drake
Creighton
Wichita
St. Louis
Northern Iowa
Missouri St.

East of the River Division
Indiana State
Southern Illinois
Butler
Illinois St.
Evansville
Bradley

Play everyone in your division home-home; play everyone in the other division once. For example, Drake might have played the following 16-game conference schedule.

Creighton
@Wichita
St. Louis
@Northern Iowa
Missouri St.
@Indiana State
Southern Illinois
@Butler
Illinois St.
@Evansville
Bradley
@Creighton
Wichita
@St. Louis
Northern Iowa
@Missouri St.

[Lurking Dog]

...and the river is the Mississippi River. At this point, they should change the name of the conference.

[Lurking Dog]

The MVC would put a huge stipulations on them in they were to join.

Make them bring back football. :lol:

[IndyTreeFan]

I really enjoy this discussion - every freakin' year. It's more than likely not going to happen, so I don't get too amped up.

However, if we were going to expand, the two teams I'd want to add are Xavier, and I'm-not-sure. I like what Xavier brings to the table. Butler would be a good add, and they play half the Valley every year anyway, but to think that they "bring the Indianapolis market" is wishful thinking. Even this year, Butler is lucky to get front page sports section coverage from the Star. They average about 4000 per game at Hinkle. They really aren't a serious player in the Indianapolis sports market, other than to make people sigh and smile as they say, "Ahhhh, Butler...":helpsmilie:

I could go for adding SLU and Xavier, and SLU is only there because of Majerus. He'll win big at SLU, if he doesn't keel over dead first. But how long will they be in the Valley before their fans, with their enormous craniums, start crying about how they should get out of the Valley because they're too good for it??? There is precedent there, you know...

[Aces1982]

I love the MVC and the competition it brings. But, I have said this many times over. For UE, it is not a good fit. The reasons mentioned above is exactly why UE should have never left the MCC. We "owened" that conference and post season was seen quite often. In the MVC, not so much. Aces fans like to argue we can compete in this league but records and stats prove otherwise. The people that think we can compete just say so from their heart. Coming into the MVC, we were on our best run in our D1 history. So coming to a better conference with great prior seasons should have just put us over the top....well it didn't.

We have finished above 5th, in 14 yrs., ONE time. We have made the Semi-Finals in Stl, ONE time. Our conference tournament record is 4-14(2 wins coming in same year). I didn't look this up but in 14 yrs. we have probably won the fewest games in the tournament.

Here are the conference records for last 14 yrs.(counting Drake going to NCAA this year)

SIU 163-89 7 NCAA, 1 NIT
Creighton 158-94 7 NCAA, 3 NIT
MSU 149-103 1 NCAA, 5 NIT
Bradley 137-115 2 NCAA, 5 NIT
ISU(Red) 132-120 2 NCCA, 3 NIT
WSU 115-137 1 NCAA, 3 NIT
UNI 110-142 3 NCAA
UE 107-145 1 NCAA
ISU(Blue) 92-160 2 NCAA
Drake 88-164 1 NCAA
Tulsa 27-9 2 NCAA

Since we won the conferecne, we have the least amount of wins:
Since 2000:
SIU 122
CU 112
MSU 95
WSU 80
BU 78
UNI 77
ISU(red) 69
Drake 66
ISU(Blue) 57
UE 54

Not to mention our dismal appearences in STL. 14 years, 4 wins, not one other team has been that bad.

Also, we are the only team in last 9 yrs. not to play in post season play.

I would love to give Marty a chance, but I think to give him a chance we need to switch confernces. Otherwise, we are not being fair to him because it is a no win situation for him.

[Indy_BB]

I really don't have anything to add other than Butler doesn't average 4000 a game, they average over 6,000.

[BearsCountry]

I say lets wait 5 years and add North Dakota State and South Dakota State. They are going to be pretty good, pretty quick.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I say lets wait 5 years and add North Dakota State and South Dakota State. They are going to be pretty good, pretty quick.

No, no, no.

IF we are going to expand, it should only be with teams from good media markets. Additional exposure and better TV coverage are really the only things we lack. Adding the Dakotas would do nothing to help that. Plus there are very few D1 hoopsters coming out of those states, so it wouldn't help recruiting any either.

[DawgieStyle]

not this stupid thread again. :chair:

[Aegyptus]

Dawgie, this thread keeps coming up because it has a real shot at happening. How big of shot? I don't know ... maybe 5%, so a 1 in 20 chance of fundamentally altering the league structure. I think that is important enough to discuss from time to time, although I was fine waiting until the off season, but this is a boring week so what the heck...

And just to preempt your inevitable post, I am going to go with

Pursue SLU

[Nyghtewynd]

If we could add Xavier, Dayton, and/or Butler, why in the world would we add SLU? They're #4 in a four-horse race.

[BearsCountry]

No, no, no.

IF we are going to expand, it should only be with teams from good media markets. Additional exposure and better TV coverage are really the only things we lack. Adding the Dakotas would do nothing to help that. Plus there are very few D1 hoopsters coming out of those states, so it wouldn't help recruiting any either.

TV markets are all good, but I think they got the potential to be the next big things in our region. Plus I have a feeling football is going to make the next big shuffle for the MVC.

[Aegyptus]

TV markets are all good, but I think they got the potential to be the next big things in our region. Plus I have a feeling football is going to make the next big shuffle for the MVC.

Short of going to FBS and somehow making it into BCS, I think you are a little crazy. We are a basketball league.

By the way, what do you define as our region? The Dakotas? Southern Canada? Because in the Midwest ... for SDSU and NDSU to be "the next big thing" would take a miracle. Like ... the when jackrabbits and bison fly kind.

[DUBulldog]

TV markets are all good, but I think they got the potential to be the next big things in our region. Plus I have a feeling football is going to make the next big shuffle for the MVC.

The last time the MVC added teams because of football, they added teams like N Texas St, New Mexico St and West Texas St.....which caused schools like Louisville and Memphis to leave the MVC.

[NewEra]

I really don't have anything to add other than Butler doesn't average 4000 a game, they average over 6,000.

Not that I wouldn't mind Butler but 6K is rather weak as well. Especially for a team that has done what it's done the last two seasons.

[NewEra]

I add this one in everytime:grin:

how bout ORU as an option? For the schools that care about baseball it would be a plus. Also thier basketball has been solid for the last 4 years or so.

[tmmroy]

which caused schools like Louisville and Memphis to leave the MVC.

Did you have to remind me? I go nuts just thinking about what the MVC would be like right now with those two still around.

[douglasdmb]

I add this one in everytime:grin:

how bout ORU as an option? For the schools that care about baseball it would be a plus. Also thier basketball has been solid for the last 4 years or so.

I always enjoy plugging ORU too, NE. :original:

I really think that they would be a perfect fit in the league and wouldn't stretch out the regional identity of the league that much (three-hour drive from Springfield). With the teams that they've had over the past 3-4 years, they would've finished in the top half each year and may have competed for a title in one or two of those seasons. As for baseball, they would instantly make our league stronger.

I would almost rather take ORU over SLU.

[Aegyptus]

Cincy is 3 hours from Terre Haute and Evansville, as is Dayton (a little further from Evansville). In terms of expanding the regional footprint with quality teams and markets, you don't get much better than Cincinnati, Dayton, and Indianapolis (and Saint Louis). Just as teams from Tulsa have been in the Valley before, so have teams from Cincy. So, I just want to dispel the notion that Cincinnati is somehow this far away place in Ohio. Both Cincinnati and Dayton are just on the other side of the Indiana border. They are large markets that are already close to our footprint. Xavier and Dayton fit much nicer in the Valley's footprint than they do in the A-10's footprint. I am not saying Tulsa does not fit our footprint, I think it does, but I just don't want to let this idea that Cincinnati would be stretching our footprint too far take hold.

[ISU87]

Most STUPID post on this thread, sorry BC, but those 2 schools are dreadful in men's BB, especially sdsu, ndsu has had more success yes, but they're still not very good. ending 4th (ndsu) in the Mid-Con is nothing to write home about. And sdsu was dead effing last (in a BAD conference) with no signs of getting better anytime soon. once ndsu's juniors graduate after next season they'll be right back down on sdsu's level again.

And location alone will keep them out of the mvc, no way would enough schools travel that far for all the other sports teams.

Sorry, ain't happenin' in our lifetimes.

I say lets wait 5 years and add North Dakota State and South Dakota State. They are going to be pretty good, pretty quick.

[SubGod22]

I've never been a fan of adding SLU and I'm still not. I'm not sure they really bring much to the table other than Majerus. And he won't be there that long. If expansion were to happen I'd be all for ORU though. Definitely adds to baseball and basketball has been strong. Tulsa also has a decent number of good recruits. More exposure in that area couldn't be a bad thing. I'm not familiar with the distance of Dayton but I'll take your word on it. I wouldn't be opposed to them either. They're a pretty solid basketball program and I think would work well in the Valley.

However, I'm not a fan of 12 teams as I like the round robin format and crowning a true regular season champion. 11 teams could work with scheduling but wouldn't work well with the tournament. I'm a big fan of 10 teams and would prefer the Valley stay that way.

[Bisonfan]

Most STUPID post on this thread, sorry BC, but those 2 schools are dreadful in men's BB, especially sdsu, ndsu has had more success yes, but they're still not very good. ending 4th (ndsu) in the Mid-Con is nothing to write home about. And sdsu was dead effing last (in a BAD conference) with no signs of getting better anytime soon. once ndsu's juniors graduate after next season they'll be right back down on sdsu's level again.

And location alone will keep them out of the mvc, no way would enough schools travel that far for all the other sports teams.

Sorry, ain't happenin' in our lifetimes.

I won't make a case about NDSU joining the MVC but NDSU will not be sinking to SDSU's dreadfull level in hoops anytime soon. The basketball program is about to get a new arena and our new coach is recruiting well. There is some good talent coming up behind those juniors.

[NewEra]

I won't make a case about NDSU joining the MVC but NDSU will not be sinking to SDSU's dreadfull level in hoops anytime soon. The basketball program is about to get a new arena and our new coach is recruiting well. There is some good talent coming up behind those juniors.

Got no problem with NDSU athletics. To me you guys are just a little out of the "footprint".

I think the UNI fans like the idea because of football. Which I don't get cause you guys are already in the gateway conference.

[BearsCountry]

Most STUPID post on this thread, sorry BC, but those 2 schools are dreadful in men's BB, especially sdsu, ndsu has had more success yes, but they're still not very good. ending 4th (ndsu) in the Mid-Con is nothing to write home about. And sdsu was dead effing last (in a BAD conference) with no signs of getting better anytime soon. once ndsu's juniors graduate after next season they'll be right back down on sdsu's level again.

And location alone will keep them out of the mvc, no way would enough schools travel that far for all the other sports teams.

Sorry, ain't happenin' in our lifetimes.

I'm glad people can only look short term and not long term. Those two schools are Missouri State and UNI clones. Lets visit this in 5 years like I said originally and see where their programs are.