08-09 Predictions

[Sir_ShoxAlot]

This may be a bit premature, but I've always wanted to start this thread and it could make for some good conversation during the offseason. Here's mine:

1) Illinois State Redbirds
2) Creighton Bluejays
3) Drake Bulldogs
4) Wichita State Shockers
5) Bradley Braves
6) Southern Illinois Salukis
7) Northern Iowa Panthers
8) Missouri State Bears
9) Indiana State Sycamores
10) Evansville Aces

Looks like I could be a spot or two generous with my hometown team, but we've got a lot of good recruits, and we'll trade early season losses for mid-late season wins. Depending on how quickly our newcomers figure it out, the Shocks could finish 4th at best.

[Chairman of the Boards]

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[shockerfan13]

Not that it makes much sense to do so this early since NO ONE knows what effects the losses they took after this last year will have or how well their newcomers will adjust to D1 ball. But I'm bored as hell, so ok:

also, this is how I think the final standings will be...who knows how the preseason picks will be but I'm sure like last year it won't be anywhere close to the final standings.

1) Creighton
2) Illinois St
3) Bradley
4) Drake
5) SIU
6) Shox
7) Missouri St
8) UNI
9) Indiana St
10) Evansville

[smsandmsuson]

Hmmm. My best guesses are that CU will win the league, MSU will not be in a play-in game, and UE will finish last.

[XSaluki]

I predict:

- 100 more Shaw jokes
- That the preseason last team will win it all
- Creighton will be second place
- The usual suspects will be fighting for 3 thru 6
- The other usual suspects will be fighting for the rest

[outpost]

I'll help fulfill that first prediction:

How many Shaws does it take to change a light bulb?

If Shaw finds his way 1) Generally to an overseas league, and 2) Specifically to an overseas Middle East league, he could possibly find himself dubbed "the Shaw of Iran."

Did you hear the one about Shaw and the Dentist?

Yep, well on our way........

[XSaluki]

I'll help fulfill that first prediction:

How many Shaws does it take to change a light bulb?

If Shaw finds his way 1) Generally to an overseas league, and 2) Specifically to an overseas Middle East league, he could possibly find himself dubbed "the Shaw of Iran."

Did you hear the one about Shaw and the Dentist?

Yep, well on our way........
LOL :lol::lol::lol::chair:

[bcg]

MSU will not be in a play-in game

Maybe I'm being over simplistic, but new players plus new coach usually equal the play-in game. I honestly don't know much about the players that will be playing in the new arena, so feel free to fill me in. I'm sure they will be a contender in the coming years, just not next year.

[DawgieStyle]

good god, we don't even know the teams full schedules yet. And yes, non conf. games have an impact on the conf. season. They can toughen a team up, give them confidence, etc. etc.

This thread comes along, earlier and earlier every year, and it's getting retarded.

Some teams have summer tours to take, we don't know if anyone will get injured in those, or prove they are better than people thought, etc. etc. Heck, some teams I think still have shcollies left.

[WSUbballer]

This thread comes along, earlier and earlier every year, and it's getting retarded.

You should be the last one in here calling something retarded.

[Phantom]

We should be in for an interesting season with all the newcomers. I think we'll see the reg. season title come down to CU and ISUred. SIU could be a top 3 team again if their new guys are as good as advertised. ISUblue and UE should be better, possibly at least 1 of them avoiding the play-in round. The rest...gonna be tough to call. It'll be another bloodbath as usual.

[WSUfan]

I expect SIU to be in the top four (or better) until they prove otherwise. I think Drake will do better than many expect. I am willing to pick the Shocks in the top four provided there is no money on the table. :innocent: :grin: Creighton and Illinois State should be good. UE may not be good. :no:

[DoubleJayAlum]

IlSU is intriguing. On paper, they lost as much or more, than anyone to graduation. They lose Dom Johnson, Boo Richardson, Slack and Dyer. While it is true that they return OE, I'm a little surprised that so many are picking them so high. I also think that Bradley lost an awful lot and will have a hard time replacing Crouch and Ruffin.

I also think that Drake, in returning both Cox and JY, will be better than some expect.

If Creighton can rebound, we should be pretty good. Unfortunately, I'm not as optimistic about our rebounding potential as some. We also need to be more physical than last year.

SIU, WSU and MSU are all very young and maybe a year away. Of the three, SIU's recruiting class seems to be the most likely to be able to step in and play at the D1/MVC level right from the beginning. I'm curious to see how quickly the SIU new guys will be able to learn to play defense the way CLo likes. I'm also curious to see if, as freshmen, they tend to get fouls called a little quicker than upperclassmen typically do.

[Phantom]

IlSU is intriguing. On paper, they lost as much or more, than anyone to graduation. They lose Dom Johnson, Boo Richardson, Slack and Dyer. While it is true that they return OE, I'm a little surprised that so many are picking them so high.


That definately is a big group to lose to graduation, but IMHO only Slack and Dom will be significantly missed. Boo was an extremely hard worker and had a really good senior season, but his size made it difficult for him to matchup well with others. Dyer was largely a 1-dimensional player and if he wasnt hitting his shots he struggled to contribute much else. At times he showed decent rebounding and post ability but he was inconsistent in those areas. Slack will be missed bigtime as he was just an all-around good player, very athletic and strong. Dom was a lock-down defender with a good head for the game and could contribute in many ways. Those 2 will be missed alot.

But on the flipside, we do have a lot returning experience, excellent depth and a very good recruiting class coming in. We are a guard heavy team again, even moreso than last year. The combo of OE and Chamberlain Oguchi should be extremely tough to stop, and Bobby Hill will be great to have back as well. Holloway, Odzic, Rubin and Holtz all return on the perimeter. Big guys Brandon Sampay and the Nigerian Nightmare both are back inside. Transfers Lloyd Phillips and Landon Shipley should contribute, and Blake Mishler will be available at the semester break. We also have several talented freshmen coming in with Jeremy Robinson, Kenyon Smith and Ty Modupe. 2 years ago we basically relied all on newcomers (OE, Hill, Slack, Dom, Boo) and we struggled to a mediocre 15-16 mark. This year we have several newcomers again but there will be a good mix with returnees. Nothing is etched in stone of course but there is much cause for continued optimism in Normal.

[UE-BBALL#1]

Tier 1: Creighton and Drake
Tier 2: Illinois St, Bradley, SIU
Tier 3: Indiana St and Missouri St.
Teir 4: Wichita St, Northern Iowa, Evansville

[The Big Guy]

I think Sir Shoxsalot is about right in his picks except for Drake. Drake will finish in 9th place. Every one else (picks 4 thru 9) should move up one spot. It is the karma of the thing.

[TNMSUFAN]

Maybe I'm being over simplistic, but new players plus new coach usually equal the play-in game. I honestly don't know much about the players that will be playing in the new arena, so feel free to fill me in. I'm sure they will be a contender in the coming years, just not next year.

Besides Creighton it seems everyone lost a lot to me...2-10 is probably a toss up

We return 3 players that started 48 games last year...if Spencer Laurie gets his extra year (might hear about that today) it will be 4 players and 66 games. All 4 averaged over 25 minutes per game last year and played in about every game on the schedule. Also, Wade Knapp played in 29 games and returns for his senior season.

Chris Cooks - 9pts 4rbs 2ast
Justin Fuehrmeyer - 7pts 2rbs 4ast
Shane Laurie - 6pts 3rbs 2ast

Spencer Laurie - 8pts 2rbs 3ast

We do have a new coach and several new players but we still return some experience guys and will have 4 seniors who have played a lot of Valley games. Who knows how things fit together and I just hope we really improve as the season goes on.

[UE-BBALL#1]

Besides Creighton it seems everyone lost a lot to me...2-10 is probably a toss up


Evansville returns everyone but Victor Gomez. However, the team also has 5 freshmen who should see significant playing time off the bench. Obviously, the problem in Evansville's case is that the players who are returning haven't been able to do anything in terms of MVC finishes in their careers. The fact that the entire starting lineup and top bench player return should help the young guys ease into playing major roles, but the experience UE returns probably isn't good enough to do much. I think UE can compete for around 7th in conference, but would be surprised if they made it out of the play-in round.

[blueness]

1.) Creighton - NCAA
2.) Drake - NCAA
3.) Illinois State - NCAA bubble/NIT
4.) SIU - NIT
5.) Indiana State - NIT
6.) Northern Iowa - NIT bubble
7.) Bradley
8.) WuShock
9.) Evansville
10.) Missouri State

By no means are there any real favorites (or real solid "basement locks")...going to be a interesting year for all...the way most of the teams in the league are building, 2009-2010 season is shaping up to be of historic proportions for the MVC. That being said, I think for the 2008-2009 season, the Valley can get 2-3 teams into the NCAAs next year.

I think 14-4 wins the league.

[WSUfan]

I'll be shocked if WSU ends up eighth (or worse). Time will tell.

[UE-BBALL#1]

I'll be shocked if WSU ends up eighth (or worse). Time will tell.

Just out of curiosity, why? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WSU just lose their top 4 scorers off a team that won 4 conference games last season?

[outpost]

Scoring is one thing........

Chemistry and playing together is another.

I think we'll have a lot more of the latter this coming year, without giving up a lot of the former.

But that doesn't necessarily equate to a dramatic improvement in WSU's place in the standings. We'll still be largely inexperienced at the D-1 level, and I believe the Valley as a whole will be better than last year.

[UE-BBALL#1]

Scoring is one thing........

Chemistry and playing together is another.

I think we'll have a lot more of the latter this coming year, without giving up a lot of the former.

But that doesn't necessarily equate to a dramatic improvement in WSU's place in the standings. We'll still be largely inexperienced at the D-1 level, and I believe the Valley as a whole will be better than last year.

Got it. I just wasn't sure if I was missing some huge development there.

[WSUfan]

1. Two new (freshmen) centers (7'0"+)
2. Aaron Ellis (sophomore) - height is thought to be about 2" greater than the 6'7" listed and he looks to be much better than last year. (Wishful thinking??)
3. A.J. Hawkins (slightly taller "PJ Couisnard") can play.
4. Ramon Clemente should continue to be one of the best rebounders in the Valley.
5. We bring back some experience: Mantas Griskenas, J.T. Durley plus Ellis, Hawkins (redshirt), Clemente.
6. Four new guards (2 frosh, 1 soph, 1 junior) who look good.

Who knows how it will turn out? In June, there is no harm in being optimistic. :grin:

[goaces]

No last place finish this year for the Aces:clap: First time I have said that in several years and actually meant it. As mentioned earlier, the talent level among the entire returning starting lineup is not nearly strong enough for an upper divison finish. However, this year's recruitng class looks to be one of Evansville's best in recent memory, which will make this team for me fun to watch. Not much doubt in my mind that this team is going to be much improved from last year. I essentially think UE is going to be a thorn in some other Valley's team a-- this season.

I look for the MVC to be very tough, and believe that Creighton will win it. ISU red and Drake would be my next choices. MVC will be back to getting 3 bids.

[TNMSUFAN]

1.) Creighton - NCAA
2.) Drake - NCAA
3.) Illinois State - NCAA bubble/NIT
4.) SIU - NIT
5.) Indiana State - NIT
6.) Northern Iowa - NIT bubble
7.) Bradley
8.) WuShock
9.) Evansville
10.) Missouri State


You must be a Barry Hinson fan...we will never finish 10th in this league. Our worst finish in 18 years is 7th and we have only done that 2 times...both with Hinson as the coach. We have 2 other 6th place finishes with a coach that was fired after doing that back-to-back years and the other 14 years we have been 5th place or higher.

[shockerfan13]

You must be a Barry Hinson fan...we will never finish 10th in this league. Our worst finish in 18 years is 7th and we have only done that 2 times...both with Hinson as the coach. We have 2 other 6th place finishes with a coach that was fired after doing that back-to-back years and the other 14 years we have been 5th place or higher.

Not saying you don't have a reason to feel optimistic if you so choose. But the history argument is the weakest reason to say a team will finish in a certain spot. MSU fans should know that relying on history isn't a good thing. I remember not too many years ago the old...our RPI is so high we can't be left out of the NCAA's...I mean it's never happened to a team that high in the RPI right? FYI, I don't think MSU will finish 10th, but I'm not sure I can pick them higher than 7th or so though either. It's all a pointless crapshoot right now anyway.


Oh and in response to the earlier statement about losing 4 starters...well the last time we lost 4 starters the following season went pretty dang well. Now I'm not saying we are anywhere CLOSE to going to the Sweet 16 this year like we did the year after we lost 4 starters (I don't even think we'll see post season play...THIS year.) I also realize we finished better than 9th the previous year, but just cause a team loses 4 starters doesn't automatically predict doom and gloom.

[TNMSUFAN]

Not saying you don't have a reason to feel optimistic if you so choose. But the history argument is the weakest reason to say a team will finish in a certain spot. MSU fans should know that relying on history isn't a good thing. I remember not too many years ago the old...our RPI is so high we can't be left out of the NCAA's...I mean it's never happened to a team that high in the RPI right? FYI, I don't think MSU will finish 10th, but I'm not sure I can pick them higher than 7th or so though either. It's all a pointless crapshoot right now anyway.

Agreed...but like I mentioned earlier we do return 4 players that started 66 games last year and averaged over 25 minutes per game each. We will have 4 seniors and 1 junior who have played in a lot of Valley basketball games plus one of the better recruiting classes I can remember coming in.

I would be interested to know how many starters each team has returning plus players who played double digit minutes per game. I know CU and UE have some guys back but it seems everyone else has some pretty big holes to fill...which is why I don't see us 10th.

[WSUfan]

Agreed...but like I mentioned earlier we do return 4 players that started 66 games last year and averaged over 25 minutes per game each. We will have 4 seniors and 1 junior who have played in a lot of Valley basketball games plus one of the better recruiting classes I can remember coming in.

I would be interested to know how many starters each team has returning plus players who played double digit minutes per game. I know CU and UE have some guys back but it seems everyone else has some pretty big holes to fill...which is why I don't see us 10th.

WSU did better when only one starter, Paul Miller, returned than when four starters did the following year.

I am curious why people don't pick UNI to finish near the bottom of the Valley. When I think of teams that might be good, I think of CU, DU, ISU-red, SIU and WSU. When I think of teams that should be OK, I think of BU and MSU. Who does that leave for the bottom? UE, ISU-blue & UNI. Maybe all the Valley teams will be good and there will not be a bottom; everyone will finish 9-9?? :grin:

[Aargh]

Another reason for some optimism at WSU is depth. 7 new guys (4 Fr, 1 So, 2 Jr), but WSU is 2-deep at every position. Some combo players give WSU the ability to go tall or quick to backup the 3.

Marshall recruits different types of players than Turgeon and is more demanding. He asks a lot of the players and he'd better get it or your butts on the bench (at least we think so - it was hard to tell last year when we were down to 8 warm bodies suited up). No one knows how the new players will react.

Checking scouting reports, on-court observations, national rankings, etc., all the newcomers appear to be at the upper end of what Turgeon recruited.

Marshall likes to press from time to time and apply perimeter pressure like SIU. WSU didn't have the personnel or the bodies to do that last year. This year's team is deeper and more athletic.

WSU has Durley (6'7" So) or either of 2 7' Fr (if Orukpe qualifies) to replace Thomasson. A.J. Hawkins (2-yr starter in the A-10) to replace Couisnard. One of 2 JuCo players to replace Braeuer. The other of the Juco guards or one of two Fr to replace Mekel. Clemente for Sr leadership - he's well-suited for it and with all the new faces, he's the team leader after only one year.

WSU has a brutal early-season tourney in Orlando. It's likely WSU will finish last or close to it. Marshall will probably get a T or 2 and the team will likely have their back sides handed to them a time or 2.

There's a lot of variables and "ifs" for WSU. If there's any justice in the world after last years injuries, late-game exhaustion and bad breaks cost WSU 4 or 5 games, then WSU gets some good bounces and breaks this year. They could be a tough team to beat.

If I've got to make predictions in June, I'm going with 10 - UE; 5 or 6 - WSU, 1 - CU.

If you think it's tough to call the MVC this year - wait until next year when we try to guess how much progress everybody's recruiting classes will make between their Fr and So years.

[smsandmsuson]

Let me add one more...

MSU will not finish below WSU

[outpost]

Mail it in........:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

[jb399]

Not saying you don't have a reason to feel optimistic if you so choose. But the history argument is the weakest reason to say a team will finish in a certain spot. MSU fans should know that relying on history isn't a good thing. I remember not too many years ago the old...our RPI is so high we can't be left out of the NCAA's...I mean it's never happened to a team that high in the RPI right? FYI, I don't think MSU will finish 10th, but I'm not sure I can pick them higher than 7th or so though either. It's all a pointless crapshoot right now anyway.


Oh and in response to the earlier statement about losing 4 starters...well the last time we lost 4 starters the following season went pretty dang well. Now I'm not saying we are anywhere CLOSE to going to the Sweet 16 this year like we did the year after we lost 4 starters (I don't even think we'll see post season play...THIS year.) I also realize we finished better than 9th the previous year, but just cause a team loses 4 starters doesn't automatically predict doom and gloom.

Hmm, let me get this straight. The history argument is lame when someone else uses it but if it fits your agenda, it's fine?

[iSASO]

The history thing just means you're due for a fall. Just like 6-7 years ago when WSU finished third in baseball. They hadn't finished lower than 2nd in 20-some years. They were due.

[Phantom]

The history thing just means you're due for a fall. Just like 6-7 years ago when WSU finished third in baseball. They hadn't finished lower than 2nd in 20-some years. They were due.

It can work in reverse too, and we were definately due for that. Prior to 2000, we only had 2 losing seasons since joining DI. Since 2000 however, we've had 4 :cursing:. So after 8 straight up & down (mostly down) seasons, we finally broke out. Everything is cyclical I guess :grin:

[shockerfan13]

Hmm, let me get this straight. The history argument is lame when someone else uses it but if it fits your agenda, it's fine?

I try my best not to use the history argument. So no, it's not fine even when it fits my agenda. it's the weakest argument ANYONE could ever use. Now when someone responds with more supporting opinions like TNMSU fan did in response to my post then I feel they have a more valid and solid argument.

The following, at least to me, is more solid of an argument then just saying that you won't finish lower than a certain spot just because you almost never do.

Agreed...but like I mentioned earlier we do return 4 players that started 66 games last year and averaged over 25 minutes per game each. We will have 4 seniors and 1 junior who have played in a lot of Valley basketball games plus one of the better recruiting classes I can remember coming in.

[WSUfan]

Let me add one more...

MSU will not finish below WSU

I think this one is worth saving. :grin:

[Divergence]

I think this one is worth saving. :grin:

Just what I was thinking also.

[iSASO]

Done. It's archived right along such classics as:


Old dirty brooks Oct. 5, 2005
Re: Matt Shaw, beginning of soph year
“Just remember what you say now, because by the time he graduates from SIU, he will be a great college basketball player.”

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Right before WSU won the MVC title and advanced to the Sweet 16:

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p>
Dawg_Tired Sept. 23, 2005 8:43am
“I don't think you'll recover that easily with the seventh best recruiting class. I predict the Shuckers will once again not meet expectations.”
“To tell you the truth I think that WSU and Drake will battle for sixth. I think WSU is down in talent and Drake is up. As far as WSU goes, you lost your two best players(Jamar Howard, Randy Burns). You didn't replace them with players who are as good as the players you lost.

</o:p>

And one of the Hall of Famers:


Gosmsgo – May 10, 2004 11:16pm –
“isaio....are you coming to the valley tournament??
<o:p></o:p>
after you see hammons field....you will know two things.
<o:p></o:p>
#1. the future of valley baseball is the bears.
#2. WSU will never again host anything when they are in competition with springfield/hammons field.”

[jays11]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.

[iSASO]

WSU wil finish in 11th place, for real. They never win the MVC regular season title like Creighton always does...

[rjl]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.

Where are these facts you speak of?

[TNMSUFAN]

I think this one is worth saving. :grin:

I am sure you guys will finish above us like you have every year we have been in the Valley

[smsandmsuson]

WSUfan--

Please do save it. It will be right and I will like to know once the time comes. We finished with a sorry team last year minus Deven and Dale and will finish above you again this year with a much better team.

[WuDrWu]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.



Shall we say, $1000 on that one '11? You get 10, I'll take 9-1.


Let me know.

[WuDrWu]

My June selections, for what it's worth and that ain't much.


Solid 1. CU

Certain top 4 and my 2. ISU

3. SIU

4. DU

5-9. In order of strength BU, MSU, UNI, ISU, WSU

10. EU


There is a lot of play 2-9. I can't see ISU out of the top 3 really, and I can't see SIU out of the top half (top 4 more likely). WSU, BU and MSU would appear to have the most upside of the lower division teams. Top half finishes for Evansville, ISU or UNI would be more than a little stunning.

Everyone gets to be optimistic this time of the year. Obviously, injuries and roster changes would have a significant impact on these predictions.

As for my team, frankly no finish will really stun me but first and last are not spots I am spending much time contemplating. I have no doubt most fans are eager to jump on WSU if they have another collapse this year. My reccomendation to those fans would be this....get your shots in this year. 09-10 potentially will not be a fun year to face WSU.

:valley::shockers:

[BeeLine]

iSASO, surely your vault of archives has your own great series of posts following the WSU sweet 16 run. As I recall that included statements about WSU being uniquely able to capatalize on their success compared to other VALLEY schools as evidenced by:
a] an extended period at the top of the Valley
b] being a "destination job" where, unlike at other Valley schools a coach stays for an extended period and doesn't bolt after some success
c] scheduling advantages, I think you referenced the number 8 as the #of BCS teams wanting home and home.

I'm wondering 2 years later, with 1.5 million spent on two coaches who delivered second division finishes, how that's all working for ya. Point being, just as other fans do, you've shot your mouth before loading your brain a few times.

As to the intended content of this thread, other than CU, way too early to have a good feel for anyone else. As for MSU, we're still recruiting and setting a roster.

[txsaluki05]

CU
SIU
ISU Red
DU
BU
WSU
MSU
UNI
UE
ISU Blue

I love June rankings.

[Sir_ShoxAlot]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.

Wow, you must hate Wichita State as much as I hate Creighton! Trust me, I hate Creighton more than anything else... ever. Period. Words can't explain.

But seriously, if you're going to post here, be a realist. Please. WSU shouldn't finish lower than 7th, and I'd be surprised if they went as low as 7. I'd say 5th or 6th is good, 4th and I'll crap my pants. 3rd is out of range.

[MoValley John]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.

Well, you went uptown ridin' in your limousine
With your fine Park Avenue clothes
You had the Dom Perignon in your hand
And the spoon up your nose
Ooh, and when you wake up in the mornin'
With your head on fire
And your eyes too bloody to see
Go on and cry in your coffee
But don't come bitchin' to me

Because you had to be a big shot, didn't cha
You had to open up your mouth
You had to be a big shot, didn't cha
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
You know what everything's about
You had to have a white hot spotlight
You had to be a big shot last night

And they were all impressed with your Halston dress
And the people that you knew at Elaine's
And the story of your latest success
You kept 'em so entertained
But now you just don't remember
All the things you said
And you're not sure that you want to know
I'll give you one hint, honey
You sure did put on a show

Yes, yes, you had to be a big shot, didn't cha
You had to prove it to the crowd
You had to be a big shot, didn't cha
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
You're so much fun to be around
You had to have the front page, bold type
You had to be a big shot last night, Oh oh

Oh Oh whoa whoa oh, Oh Oh whoa who-oo-oo-oo-ah,
Oh Oh Oh whoa whoa oh, Oh Oh whoa.

Well, it's no big sin to stick your two cents in
If you know when to leave it alone
But you went over the line
You couldn't see it was time to go home
No, no, no, no, no, no

You had to be a big shot, didn't cha
You had to open up your mouth
You had to be a big shot, didn't cha
All your friends were so knocked out
You had to have the last word, last night
So much fun to be around
You had to have the white hot spotlight
You had to be a big shot last night, Oh oh
Oh Oh whoa whoa oh, Oh Oh whoa.

[jays11]

sir shoxalot why do you hate creighton so much?

[SubGod22]

sir shoxalot why do you hate creighton so much?



Doesn't everyone?

[MoValley John]

Me thinks Shocker fans are being sucked in by a troll. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

A troll hit Bradley fans a week ago, they were smart enough to ignore.

[WSUbballer]

Let me add one more...

MSU will not finish below WSU

Really?

MSU loses their entire scoring, brings in a new coach, with a new system, and they'll be that good?

PM me for a little bet. I'll take whatever you want. If you don't PM me, then I'll safely assume you're too chicken to go ahead with it.

[WSUbballer]

WSU fans your team will finish last this year, face the facts.

And what facts would those be?

Graduate high school and then come back here and post.

[WSUfan]

WSUfan--

Please do save it. It will be right and I will like to know once the time comes. We finished with a sorry team last year minus Deven and Dale and will finish above you again this year with a much better team.

If you earn a better finish, then you deserve praise. Maybe even a NCAA tourney invite. :original:

[outpost]

Me thinks Shocker fans are being sucked in by a troll. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

A troll hit Bradley fans a week ago, they were smart enough to ignore.

I'd like to settle this once and for all....bundle it up in a nice, neat package. Here is your Player of the Year, Coach of the Year, Newcomer of the Year, and Comeback Player of the Year, all right here.

That will be $11.99 each. Plus Local Sales Tax.

http://www.getnet.com/~richarde/toystore/Images/2003_0329_215722AA%20glo%20trolls%20st.JPG

[outpost]

(Fighting.......dark side.....:doh:......MVJ pulling me over.....remember, SPR........:innocent:......Valley..........no..... it's not real!.......:banghead:......get out of my head!!.......must find antidote........:helpsmilie:........)

[TNMSUFAN]

Really?

MSU loses their entire scoring, brings in a new coach, with a new system, and they'll be that good?

Not sure anything has been mentioned about us being good and reality is we could finish 7th just like last year which was still above you guys.

Also, I am pretty sure we return as much as you guys do and you still basically have a new coach and new system.

You return 1 starter who averaged 7pts 8rbs per game and another bench player who averaged 7pts 4rbs but only played 15 minutes per game...Nobody else played in every game.

[WSUfan]

Not sure anything has been mentioned about us being good and reality is we could finish 7th just like last year which was still above you guys.

Also, I am pretty sure we return as much as you guys do and you still basically have a new coach and new system.

You return 1 starter who averaged 7pts 8rbs per game and another bench player who averaged 7pts 4rbs but only played 15 minutes per game...Nobody else played in every game.

How could we fault your logic? :innocent: :grin:

[smsandmsuson]

Really?

MSU loses their entire scoring, brings in a new coach, with a new system, and they'll be that good?

PM me for a little bet. I'll take whatever you want. If you don't PM me, then I'll safely assume you're too chicken to go ahead with it.

We lose basically two starters. Richards was hurt 60% of the season and was a total wash. Dale and Deven is what we will have to replace and we have more then enough to just that in Weems, Creekmore, Rhine, Mayhew, Hobbs, and McFarland.

You lost three of your top five scorers. What do you know? More then us:doh:

-EDIT- You lose 4 of your top 5 scorers. I wasnt sure if you had lost Mekel or not but you have.

[Canevision]

We lose basically two starters. Richards was hurt 60% of the season and was a total wash. Dale and Deven is what we will have to replace and we have more then enough to just that in Weems, Creekmore, Rhine, Mayhew, Hobbs, and McFarland.

You lost three of your top five scorers. What do you know? More then us:doh:

-EDIT- You lose 4 of your top 5 scorers. I wasnt sure if you had lost Mekel or not but you have.

We all like what we have read and heard about our recruits, but until they do it in a game, I can understand other teams' fans being skeptical about us.

The same thing with Coach Martin. All of us truly believe he will be a great coach for us, but until other fans see him do it when the bullets are flying, the new coach/system is held against us as a negative, and not the positive we all know it is.

I have the order like this:
CU
IlSt
SIU
Drake
Bradley
UNI
MSU
WSU
InSt
Evansville

[smsandmsuson]

We all like what we have read and heard about our recruits, but until they do it in a game, I can understand other teams' fans being skeptical about us.

The same thing with Coach Martin. All of us truly believe he will be a great coach for us, but until other fans see him do it when the bullets are flying, the new coach/system is held against us as a negative, and not the positive we all know it is.

I have the order like this:
CU
IlSt
SIU
Drake
Bradley
UNI
MSU
WSU
InSt
Evansville

So explain to me how WSU is any different then us? They claim they will have the better team based on recruits and their coach being there a year. One year is not a huge difference, even more so when they lose more in terms of production.

If everything is basically the same then I have no problem with my prediction.

[iSASO]

You nailed it smsandmsuson.
Coach Martin is certainly the equal of Gregg Marshall in the college basketball world. There really is no difference in their accomplishments or experiences.

Just two rookie head coaches trying to find their way in the business.

[DoubleJayAlum]

You nailed it smsandmsuson.
Coach Martin is certainly the equal of Gregg Marshall in the college basketball world. There really is no difference in their accomplishments or experiences.

Just two rookie head coaches trying to find their way in the business.

I know one difference. One of the two has a really, really bad temper.

[WSUbballer]

I know one difference. One of the two has a really, really bad temper.

You seem to be infatuated with our head coach and his issues.

Maybe you should worry more about your player's bad temper issues.

[rjl]

Because we all know that Dana Altman has been tantrum-free for his entire tenure.

[WSUbballer]

Because we all know that Dana Altman has been tantrum-free for his entire tenure.

The classic DJA or Creighton counter will be.. "well how many T's has Altman gotten?"

Of course this is a trick question since Alty owns the referees.

I still remember the CU-Miami NIT game of 06. That was a great ending.

[rjl]

I still remember the CU-Miami NIT game of 06. That was a great ending.

Yeah? I didn't see the game, but Dana Altman's tantrum was shown on Sportscenter that night, so I was able to see that part at least.

I was unable to attend the MVC Tourney this last season, and as Marshall's tantrum wasn't nationally televised like Dana's, I didn't see it. Maybe he didn't get his arms into it as much as Dana, therefore it wasn't prime time material.

[DoubleJayAlum]

I was unable to attend the MVC Tourney this last season, and as Marshall's tantrum wasn't nationally televised like Dana's, I didn't see it. Maybe he didn't get his arms into it as much as Dana, therefore it wasn't prime time material.

Perhaps. Of course, a more reasonable explanation could be that ESPN didn't think anybody would care about the actions of a coach who lead his team to a ninth place finish in a ten team conference.

Of course this is a trick question since Alty owns the referees.
I love these kinds of quotes. Conspiracy theorists and some WSU fans are synonymous. ESPN has a bias against WSU. The NCAA treats them unfairly. Referees always favor opponents. Other MVC baseball programs have a vendetta against WSU. Teams further south get more sunshine. Outside of Wichita, water is wetter, grass is greener, girls are prettier, etc., etc. :crying:

I know, I know....you wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get you. Its hard living as a WSU fan battling both natural competition as well as all the forces of the world working against you all the time.

[jays11]

I would have to say Creighton will take the valley just because of everyone who is returning , but i think SIU with all there young talent will challenge Creighton.

[WSUbballer]

Perhaps. Of course, a more reasonable explanation could be that ESPN didn't think anybody would care about the actions of a coach who lead his team to a ninth place finish in a ten team conference.

2006 is a tough year for CU fans to take. It was the year in which WSU was made fun of for being the official sponsors of the NIT only to see the beloved BJs fill the coveted role.

I saw the sportscenter clips from the game too, right after the NCAA coverage of WSU making its "sweet" run to a place BJ fans can only dream of.

I love these kinds of quotes. Conspiracy theorists and some WSU fans are synonymous. ESPN has a bias against WSU. The NCAA treats them unfairly. Referees always favor opponents. Other MVC baseball programs have a vendetta against WSU. Teams further south get more sunshine. Outside of Wichita, water is wetter, grass is greener, girls are prettier, etc., etc. :crying:

I know, I know....you wouldn't be so paranoid if everyone wasn't out to get you. Its hard living as a WSU fan battling both natural competition as well as all the forces of the world working against you all the time.

Are you really suggesting that WSU fans are the only fans that ***** about things in this conference?

Spoken like a true BJ fan you are. Above the rest mentality, hypocritical in nature, and is too busy worrying about other programs than being concerned with your own.

Thanks for living up to your expectations.

[outpost]

I'm not in any way expressing sympathy for them, but I would think that if any fan group in this conference has the burden of "conspiracy theorists" affixed to their name, it would be MSU fans, due to the fact that MSU has failed several years running to provide the magic key to unlock the doors to the NCAA basketball tourney. The same can be said for them in a few other sports (VB and baseball to name a couple).

[Sir_ShoxAlot]

I would have to say Creighton will take the valley just because of everyone who is returning , but i think SIU with all there young talent will challenge Creighton.

:lol::lol::lol:

Good job.

[TNMSUFAN]

The same can be said for them in a few other sports (VB and baseball to name a couple).

Good call considering the Volleyball teams has been to the NCAA tournament 4 of the last 5 years.

[upsaluki]

You nailed it smsandmsuson.
Coach Martin is certainly the equal of Gregg Marshall in the college basketball world. There really is no difference in their accomplishments or experiences.

Just two rookie head coaches trying to find their way in the business.
Nice Post. I still think Martin will be a good hire for them. IMO Marshall still has to prove he can coach in a tough, balanced league. His career stats are pretty nice though.

Head coaching record
Season Team Overall Conference Standing Postseason
Winthrop (Big South Conference) (1998–2007)
1998–1999 Winthrop 21-8 9-1 1st NCAA 1st Round
1999–2000 Winthrop 21-9 11-3 2nd NCAA 1st Round
2000–2001 Winthrop 18-13 11-3 2nd NCAA 1st Round
2001–2002 Winthrop 19-12 10-4 T-1st NCAA 1st Round
2002–2003 Winthrop 20-10 11-3 1st None
2003–2004 Winthrop 16-12 10-6 T-3rd None
2004–2005 Winthrop 27-6 15-1 1st NCAA 1st Round
2005–2006 Winthrop 23-8 13-3 1st NCAA 1st Round
2006–2007 Winthrop 29-5 14-0 1st NCAA 2nd Round
Winthrop: 194-83 104-24
Wichita State (Missouri Valley Conference) (2007–present)
2007–2008 Wichita State 11-20 4-14 9 None
Wichita State: 11-20 4-14
Total: 205-103

[iSASO]

Now can you find Zo Martin's D1 career Head Coaching stats? Or maybe smsandmsuson can post the stats since he's already compared them and determined that they are equal.

[smsandmsuson]

Now can you find Zo Martin's D1 career Head Coaching stats? Or maybe smsandmsuson can post the stats since he's already compared them and determined that they are equal.

Good call. That successful coach led you to great heights last year.

I didnt say they(the coaches) were equal. I said given the fact that you lose more and have a head coach that has been here(The Valley) a year is equal to us bringing more back then you and having a first year coach.

As you saw last year, bringing in a coach that was great in a low crappy D1 conference doesnt mean much.

[BeeLine]

But of course the only relevant Marshall stat is that 11-20, 4-14, 9th place finish. I know that because iSASO has told us repeatedly over the years how the conference championships and NCAA Tourney bids Missouri State achieved in baseball and basketball while in the Mid Con Coference are insignifcant and have no relevancy to MVC play. He surely wouldn't suggest that records achieved in the Big South Conference or subsequent NCAA Tourney bids have any relevancy to what Marshall does in the MVC.
I mean that would make him a two-faced hipocrite,so I'm sure he's not going to use an argument so weak and contradictory to points he has sworn by, as suggesting Marshalls past Big South record is relevant here. I'm sure he's going to stand on the only thing we factually know in this case, that being that Marshall is fully capable of coaching a team to 9th place at this level. So that is where we stand; ZO is an unknown and Marshall is a 9th place calibre coach at this moment in time related to the MVC. I can live with that and I'm sure iSASO will stand behind his past statements.

[TNMSUFAN]

Nice Post. I still think Martin will be a good hire for them. IMO Marshall still has to prove he can coach in a tough, balanced league. His career stats are pretty nice though.

Head coaching record
Season Team Overall Conference Standing Postseason
Winthrop (Big South Conference) (1998–2007)
1998–1999 Winthrop 21-8 9-1 1st NCAA 1st Round
1999–2000 Winthrop 21-9 11-3 2nd NCAA 1st Round
2000–2001 Winthrop 18-13 11-3 2nd NCAA 1st Round
2001–2002 Winthrop 19-12 10-4 T-1st NCAA 1st Round
2002–2003 Winthrop 20-10 11-3 1st None
2003–2004 Winthrop 16-12 10-6 T-3rd None
2004–2005 Winthrop 27-6 15-1 1st NCAA 1st Round
2005–2006 Winthrop 23-8 13-3 1st NCAA 1st Round
2006–2007 Winthrop 29-5 14-0 1st NCAA 2nd Round
Winthrop: 194-83 104-24
Wichita State (Missouri Valley Conference) (2007–present)
2007–2008 Wichita State 11-20 4-14 9 None
Wichita State: 11-20 4-14
Total: 205-103

I was told history didn't mean anything concerning this season after I brought up the fact we had never finished below 7th in the league. I assume the same holds true here considering Marshall isn't at Winthrop anymore and he won just 4 games in the conference last year.

[WSUfan]

As you saw last year, bringing in a coach that was great in a low crappy D1 conference doesnt mean much.

So you're saying that if MSU had a signed recruit die over the summer, other signed recruits go elsewhere (e.g. Texas A&M, Illinois State), injuries, etc. like WSU had in 2007-8, the Bears would still have finished much higher than did WSU. Right?

Sometimes "things" (e.g. injuries) get in the way of a successful season. Even the best coach will lose if he/she doesn't have the players.

[WSUbballer]

It's probably not fair to judge any first year coach who inherits new faces and tries to incorporate his system after just one year.

Just a thought.

[TNMSUFAN]

It's probably not fair to judge any first year coach who inherits new faces and tries to incorporate his system after just one year.

Just a thought.

Probably not but a first year coach won the league last year and another finished 2nd

[smsandmsuson]

:yes::yes::yes:

:valley::bears:

[iSASO]

I was told history didn't mean anything concerning this season after I brought up the fact we had never finished below 7th in the league. I assume the same holds true here considering Marshall isn't at Winthrop anymore and he won just 4 games in the conference last year.

I agree completely. Marshall's career record is 11-20. None of his other experiences matter whatsoever.

[WSUbballer]

Probably not but a first year coach won the league last year and another finished 2nd

While this is true, you know that's not really the norm. I believe Drake had a lot of returning players and/or seniors on last year's team. Experience overcame coaching in that regard, IMO.

Anything can happen, but first-year coaches traditionally don't do well, as you probably know.

[MoValley John]

While this is true, you know that's not really the norm. I believe Drake had a lot of returning players and/or seniors on last year's team. Experience overcame coaching in that regard, IMO.

Anything can happen, but first-year coaches traditionally don't do well, as you probably know.

Lets see, for the last three years, Drake was an eyelash from breaking through. I mean is there a rule about how many overtimes and 2 point losses any team should have to endure? So they really did have talent, but few noticed because they had bunches of very close losses and were buried in standings. Then, you have a new coach. But really how new was he. He was firmly implanted in the program, knew the system better than the players and heck, he wasn't just an assistant, the coach used to change his diapers! Not much of a transition I'd say.

[Canevision]

You nailed it smsandmsuson.
Coach Martin is certainly the equal of Gregg Marshall in the college basketball world. There really is no difference in their accomplishments or experiences.

Just two rookie head coaches trying to find their way in the business.

Marshall may have more experience, but he really didn't impress me much last year. Perhaps that was the fault of the players in his system. We shall see this year, when they have pretty much a new roster that he has recruited.

[Canevision]

So explain to me how WSU is any different then us? They claim they will have the better team based on recruits and their coach being there a year. One year is not a huge difference, even more so when they lose more in terms of production.

If everything is basically the same then I have no problem with my prediction.

You did notice I picked us ahead of WSU, correct?

[smsandmsuson]

You did notice I picked us ahead of WSU, correct?

:yes:

[dawg]

Wow you boys are starting early this year. My thoughts:

SIU
CU
IlSt
Drake
Bradley
UNI
MSU
WSU
InSt
Evansville

[DawgieStyle]

Wow you boys are starting early this year. My thoughts:

SIU
CU
IlSt
Drake
Bradley
UNI
MSU
WSU
InSt
Evansville

wow, what a non homer pick.....:noexpression:

[Sir_ShoxAlot]

wow, what a non homer pick.....:noexpression:

It's jays11! He's an SIU fan!

[Snapshot9]

So would I. I predicted a 4th place finish for the Shox. We have 4 new guards, 2 jucos, plus AJ Hawkins (a transfer) at the 3 (averaged almost 18 ppg at St Bonadventure), and 2 new 7 foot Centers. Not only that, but Clemente will be a senior this year and a leader, and out rebounded almost everyone he came up against last year, including Sampay.

[DawgieStyle]

It's jays11! He's an SIU fan!

what are you talking about? My comment was to Dawg, not jays11.

[Sir_ShoxAlot]

what are you talking about? My comment was to Dawg, not jays11.

Nevermind.
Think about it. But if you don't get it, just leave it alone.

[Snapshot9]

According to the Bradley board, they win the league this year.

[DawgieStyle]

According to the Bradley board, they win the league this year.

:lol: what! they don't think Illinois State will win....say it aint so.

[Brave2001]

:lol: what! they don't think Illinois State will win....say it aint so.

**** ISU!

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[dawg]

wow, what a non homer pick.....:noexpression:

I don't like boys, you are thinking of baller :)

[Keita44]

1. Illinois State
2. Creighton
3. SIU
4. Bradley
5. MSU
6. WSU
7. Indiana State
8. UNI
9. Evansville


Drake will get completely killed in every single game played, which will force the Missouri Valley to kick them out of the conference.

Why not start early? :innocent:

[TNMSUFAN]

Well, after looking at who everyone lost it sure seems like a toss up with the exception of Creighton...after that who knows.

Last year's final standings and seniors they lost...might be other defections that I am not sure about

1. Drake loses Emmenecker, Houston, Korver
2. IL State loses Slack, Johnson, Richardson, Dyer,
3. S. Illinois loses Falker, Shaw,
4. Creighton loses Watts, Bahe
5. N. Iowa loses Coleman, Josten, Viet
6. Bradley loses Ruffin, Crouch, Salley
7. MO State loses Lamberth, Mitchell, Richards
8. IN State loses Moore, Martin
9. Wichita State loses Couisnard, Mekel, Braeuer, Thomasson,
10. Evansville loses Gomez

[WSUbballer]

I don't like boys, you are thinking of baller :)

That's right. You're into the balding, aged, stiff older men type.

SIU fans are getting started early this year..

LOL.. No.1? :lol::lol:

[Dawgbit]

I'll help fulfill that first prediction:

How many Shaws does it take to change a light bulb?

If Shaw finds his way 1) Generally to an overseas league, and 2) Specifically to an overseas Middle East league, he could possibly find himself dubbed "the Shaw of Iran."

Did you hear the one about Shaw and the Dentist?

Yep, well on our way........


I predict that outpost, isaso, MVJ, et al, will still be arseholes.

[WSUbballer]

I predict that outpost, isaso, MVJ, et al, will still be arseholes.

I predict Dawgbit will come out of his hole only after SIU wins, just like last year and that a fighting Kristie Yamaguchi will still be going strong in his avatar.

[dawg]

Would you expect anything less from me Baller? I'm predictable if nothing else ...

[WSUbballer]

Would you expect anything less from me Baller? I'm predictable if nothing else ...

Ditto dawg.

Scary as it sounds, we're the same person I'm afraid.. :fear:

[dawg]

We just need the season to start again. Its gonna be a long summer!

[Little Eddie]

Well, after looking at who everyone lost it sure seems like a toss up with the exception of Creighton...after that who knows.

Last year's final standings and seniors they lost...might be other defections that I am not sure about

1. Drake loses Emmenecker, Houston, Korver
2. IL State loses Slack, Johnson, Richardson, Dyer,
3. S. Illinois loses Falker, Shaw,
4. Creighton loses Watts, Bahe
5. N. Iowa loses Coleman, Josten, Viet
6. Bradley loses Ruffin, Crouch, Salley
7. MO State loses Lamberth, Mitchell, Richards
8. IN State loses Moore, Martin
9. Wichita State loses Couisnard, Mekel, Braeuer, Thomasson,
10. Evansville loses Gomez

Unless you have more inside information than myself, you're wrong about Martin being gone. Maybe you were thinking of McCoy? Martin was a freshman and he hasn't departed...you can add Holmstrom and Arnold though as they have parted ways w/ ISU's hoop team.

[TNMSUFAN]

Unless you have more inside information than myself, you're wrong about Martin being gone. Maybe you were thinking of McCoy? Martin was a freshman and he hasn't departed...you can add Holmstrom and Arnold though as they have parted ways w/ ISU's hoop team.

Sorry I wasn't sure on some...

[PTTB]

I put together some stats comparing all the teams in the MVC:
Bradley/Creighton http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17535
Creighton/Drake http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17661
Evansville/InSU/IlSU http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17761
Missouri State/UNI http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17770
SIU/Wichita State http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17979

The Breakdown does a team vs. team comparison and their rank
http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17984

I have another one I have to post comparing PPG.

Also, this was as of early May, and some of the starting fives were obviously a guess, so they may not be 100% accurate. Still, they are good to chat about.

[TNMSUFAN]

I put together some stats comparing all the teams in the MVC:
Bradley/Creighton http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17535
Creighton/Drake http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17661
Evansville/InSU/IlSU http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17761
Missouri State/UNI http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17770
SIU/Wichita State http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17979

The Breakdown does a team vs. team comparison and their rank
http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17984

I have another one I have to post comparing PPG.

Also, this was as of early May, and some of the starting fives were obviously a guess, so they may not be 100% accurate. Still, they are good to chat about.


Ours is MUCH different now and Spencer Laurie still might get his extra year

[outpost]

I predict that outpost, isaso, MVJ, et al, will still be arseholes.

Need some advice.......should I keep this flounder or throw it back in the lake??

(SPR.....SPR.....SPR.......)

[iSASO]

PTTB, you nailed it. Wichita State will definitely start Wendell Preadom at a guard spot next season. Are you Digger Phelps' lead analyst on the mid-major ranks? Keep up the good work.

[iSASO]

PTTB, you nailed it again with this statement:
SIU's freshman class may very well be the best the Valley has ever seen

I simply cannot imagine a better class in the 100 year history of the MVC. This SIU class will certainly blow away a recruiting class headlined by Oscar Robertson, Cleo Littleton, Dave Stallworth, Hersey Hawkins, Lewis Lloyd, Steve Harris, Paul Pressey, Bob Kurland or Wes Unseld.

And surely SIU's class is better than one led by Parade All-American Antoine Carr or the class featuring the co-MVP's of the McDonald's High School All-American game, Aubrey Sherrod and Greg Dreiling. Of course, also in that class was a future 1st Team All-American and NBA All-Star. I think his name was McDaniel. Some people called him 'X'. You might find him in the NCAA record books.

I pay homage to you, O Wise One. Please post more frequently. This site desperately needs your expertise.

[PTTB]

isaso-

Thanks for the warm welcome to the board. I knew that was coming some time.

My starting fives were done in April, and I tried to do the best I could with the time I had. I never said I was a Street and Smith's or Lindy's magazine. I just tried to put together a rough sketch of how things MIGHT look for next year, in addition to the stats on ppg and mpg coming back. There have been some defections and additions since those were posted two months ago. :)

As for the recruiting classes. I'm no Johnny Come Lately. I've been a fan of the Valley all my life. I'm well aware of the great Shocker players in the early to mid 80's. I never said that SIU's class would be the best ever, I said: "SIU's freshman class may very well be the best the Valley has ever seen." There is a difference in what you think I said and what I actually said. I said they MAY very well be the best class. They have alot to live up to, but as a collective class, they are the most impressive on paper in a long time.

Maybe I should have made the statement that:
SIU's freshman class is the best non-paid, legally recruited class the Valley has ever seen. That would maybe put it closer to being the truth! ;)

[WSUfan]

Who was that "Larry Bird" guy, anyway?

BTW: Wendell Preadom is leaving WSU.

[iSASO]

I withheld Larry Legend from the list because he wasn't a true freshman class recruit.

Considering the quality of players and teams in the Valley's history, I can't fathom touting any player, recruiting class or team as "one of the best ever" long before anything happens. It's a nearly impossible standard to meet.

I'd have to wait until they made the Sweet 16 and had a candidate for national player of the year before I'd even begin thinking along the lines of "best ever". Just too much history to overcome to be fair.

On recruiting, unless one is a Parade All-American that's another really tough list to crack. Look at how badly the Matt "God" Shaw hype panned out for SIU fans. We don't any more repeats of that mess.

And yes, welcome to the board. Welcome to summer on the bored board.

[Divergence]

isaso-

My starting fives were done in April, and I tried to do the best I could with the time I had. I never said I was a Street and Smith's or Lindy's magazine. I just tried to put together a rough sketch of how things MIGHT look for next year, in addition to the stats on ppg and mpg coming back. There have been some defections and additions since those were posted two months ago. :)



FWIW, A.J. Hawkins average 12.2 ppg, 5.2 RBD his sophmore year in the Atlantic 10

[LincolnJay]

Hesaidso, thanks for the throwback to disco, nosepicker collars and even further back to hula hoops. Wouldntve expected it from anyone else but you.

[Divergence]

I put together some stats comparing all the teams in the MVC:
Wichita State http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17979

so they may not be 100% accurate. Still, they are good to chat about.

Orukpe is a freshman, not a redshirt freshman
Chamberlain is a sophmore
Durley is redshirt Sophmore

Preadom is not on the team

[LincolnJay]

PTTB, Tom Whitehead for CU is a one year juco who sat out last year so he is a redshirt soph, not a junior and he is 6'7.

Also, CU junior 6'4 juco Justin Carter was not mentioned. He is highly regarded and will be a starter or first guard off the bench if the hype is correct.

CU is still very young so annointing them the league favorites is a bit much for me but then again, who will be the favorite? Hard to say.

[outpost]

Orukpe is a freshman, not a redshirt freshman
Chamberlain is a sophmore
Durley is redshirt Sophmore

Preadom is not on the team

Wendell is a good person, but I'm thinking "addition due to subtraction"........at least as far as the team outlook on the court goes.....

[WSUfan]

CU is still very young so annointing them the league favorites is a bit much for me but then again, who will be the favorite? Hard to say.

Creighton has to be the favorite. Drake lost the MVC POY and more. SIU is rebuilding, as are others. Illinois State might be a possible favorite but they lost some players too.

[PTTB]

This was as of late April. This is Points Per Game returning.

Points Returning
1. Evansville 88%
2. Creighton 72%
3. Indiana State 66%
4t. Northern Iowa 57%
4t. Bradley 57%
6. Drake 56%
7. Illinois State 55%
8. Southern Ill 50%
9t. Missouri St. 35%
9t. Wichita State 35%

[upsaluki]

This was as of late April. This is Points Per Game returning.

Points Returning
1. Evansville 88%
2. Creighton 72%
3. Indiana State 66%
4t. Northern Iowa 57%
4t. Bradley 57%
6. Drake 56%
7. Illinois State 55%
8. Southern Ill 50%
9t. Missouri St. 35%
9t. Wichita State 35%


I think Drake and Illinois State aren't as hurt by this, because their go-to guys are coming back. It's a lot easier to replace complementary players than stars. I feel OK about SIU, because they have 7 incoming players in a very talented class. I think at least a few will be able to step up and contribute this year. Creighton should be the strongest team in the Valley this year.

My sure to be wrong prediction:

1. Creighton
2. IL State
3. S. Illinois
4. Drake
5. Bradley
6. N. Iowa
7. IN State
8. MO State
9. Evansville
10. Wichita State

[upsaluki]

I put together some stats comparing all the teams in the MVC:
Bradley/Creighton http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17535
Creighton/Drake http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17661
Evansville/InSU/IlSU http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17761
Missouri State/UNI http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17770
SIU/Wichita State http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17979

The Breakdown does a team vs. team comparison and their rank
http://www.panthernation.com/showthread.php?t=17984

I have another one I have to post comparing PPG.

Also, this was as of early May, and some of the starting fives were obviously a guess, so they may not be 100% accurate. Still, they are good to chat about.

good stuff

[WSUbballer]

If WSU finishes last, then Evansville will finish first.

[upsaluki]

If WSU finishes last, then Evansville will finish first.

I just put that in there to get a rise out of the shucker faithful. :naughty: With the last four there isn't a real big difference to me. Maybe a new recruiting class and another year under Marshal's system leads to you guys being somewhere in the 7-8 range, but last year you guys were ninth. I just think Simmons has as good a chance of getting out of the cellar this year as Marshal does.

[WSUbballer]

I just put that in there to get a rise out of the shucker faithful. :naughty: With the last four there isn't a real big difference to me. Maybe a new recruiting class and another year under Marshal's system leads to you guys being somewhere in the 7-8 range, but last year you guys were ninth. I just think Simmons has as good a chance of getting out of the cellar this year as Marshal does.

With where we finished last year and with what we lost, I don't blame ya. We have no experience and pretty much no returning scoring. I suspect most publications will have us at the 9-10 range. I just hope we bloom maybe a little ahead of schedule, but that's not likely.

I just can't see it in my mind though for 10th. I can't wait til '10.

[upsaluki]

With where we finished last year and with what we lost, I don't blame ya. We have no experience and pretty much no returning scoring. I suspect most publications will have us at the 9-10 range. I just hope we bloom maybe a little ahead of schedule, but that's not likely.

I just can't see it in my mind though for 10th. I can't wait til '10.

I think Marshal will right the ship. A guy from scout I talked to was really high on Stutz and the rest of your incoming class looks good. The Valley is pretty touch from top to bottom so it's hard to pick where teams will land this year.There area lot of question marks and it seems fairly wide open with the exception of Creighton being solidly ahead of everyone else.

[iSASO]

WSU will finish in their traditional 11th place.

[douglasdmb]

WSU will finish in their traditional 11th place...

...in the national polls?...just like the 1963 football season? :naughty:

[Dawgbit]

Creighton has to be the favorite. Drake lost the MVC POY and more. SIU is rebuilding, as are others. Illinois State might be a possible favorite but they lost some players too.

SIU is reloading, not rebuilding, there is a difference. I think SIU will be decent this year, but next year, with a year under their belts, and a seasoned vet in Tony Freeman.......hold on, wait a minute, gotta put some Dawg in it!:salukis::clap:

[DawgieStyle]

I withheld Larry Legend from the list because he wasn't a true freshman class recruit.

Considering the quality of players and teams in the Valley's history, I can't fathom touting any player, recruiting class or team as "one of the best ever" long before anything happens. It's a nearly impossible standard to meet.

I'd have to wait until they made the Sweet 16 and had a candidate for national player of the year before I'd even begin thinking along the lines of "best ever". Just too much history to overcome to be fair.

On recruiting, unless one is a Parade All-American that's another really tough list to crack. Look at how badly the Matt "God" Shaw hype panned out for SIU fans. We don't any more repeats of that mess.

And yes, welcome to the board. Welcome to summer on the bored board.

you to aren't talking the same thing. He's talking about the overall class of freshmen. You are singling out one player from each class. There is a difference.

Just because you have 1 all star and 4 other no bodies, doesn't mean the class was great. The player was great, but was the class?

I guess one way to look at it is: would you rather have 1 all star and 3 or 4 scrubs as a recruiting class, or 4-5 great but not all star type of players as your recruiting class?

Define what you are arguing about. Overall recruiting base or indvidual talent. Sure X man was great, but how did the rest of that recruiting class he came in with turn out?

[DUBulldog]

Define what you are arguing about. Overall recruiting base or indvidual talent. Sure X man was great, but how did the rest of that recruiting class he came in with turn out?

X-Man had a long NBA career, and he was considered the 3rd or 4th best player in that year's WSU recruiting class. Greg Dreiling and Aubrey Sherrod were both considered among the top 10 high school players in the nation. Dreiling also had a long (if less than stellar) NBA career. Sherrod was a very good college player who had some NBA tryouts, but never made the league.

A couple years later, WSU had a class with Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston and Ozell Jones, all of who played in the NBA.

Back in those days, SIU's class of this year would have been considered a typical MVC recruiting class, maybe slightly above average.

[WSUbballer]

Any more questions Dawgie?

And, for the record, referencing an article that came out in 1983 in your sig looks about as stupid as someone bragging about a 1963 football title.

Also, in the context you were writing, 'to' is spelled 'two'.

[DawgieStyle]

X-Man had a long NBA career, and he was considered the 3rd or 4th best player in that year's WSU recruiting class. Greg Dreiling and Aubrey Sherrod were both considered among the top 10 high school players in the nation. Dreiling also had a long (if less than stellar) NBA career. Sherrod was a very good college player who had some NBA tryouts, but never made the league.

A couple years later, WSU had a class with Antoine Carr, Cliff Levingston and Ozell Jones, all of who played in the NBA.

Back in those days, SIU's class of this year would have been considered a typical MVC recruiting class, maybe slightly above average.

thanks for the info. I would say that was a pretty impressive recruiting class. That said, the MVC was a much different conference then, than it is now. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. It's pretty hard to compare recruiting classes from then til now. The college game was so much different and the landscape of the conferences was different as well.

Still, SIU would have to be extremely lucky to expect to get 3 potential NBA guys out of this class like that one. Stranger things have happened, but I doubt it.

[Brian]

Everybody always says that ISU had 4 or 5 other scrubs around Larry Bird. Not true. Carl Nicks played a few years in the NBA and averaged 7 points a game for his NBA career. Also, I believe one of their big guys, maybe from the year before, played a little while in the NBA as well.

[iSASO]

And let's not forget about Randy Smithson, another HS All American who transferred to WSU. All he did was get recruited hard (including official visits) by Duke and Kansas but chose to stay with his father.

And, Dawgie, thanks for playing. I knew you would jump on the statement that one was a Parade All-American and falsely assume that the rest of the class was nobodies. So predictable. Like I said and you just had to debate, "all-time Valley" anything is a pretty tough list to make. I don't care when it happened. The players I listed would have been great at any time in history. I assume you won't debate that.

DUBulldog, you are the man. You hit Dawgie's softball pitch way out of the park. It may never come down.

[DawgieStyle]

And let's not forget about Randy Smithson, another HS All American who transferred to WSU. All he did was get recruited hard (including official visits) by Duke and Kansas but chose to stay with his father.

And, Dawgie, thanks for playing. Like I said and you just had to debate, "all-time Valley" anything is a pretty tough list to make. I don't care when it happened. The players I listed would have been great at any time in history. I assume you won't debate that.

1) I didn't start the debate about best or all time valley in this thread, I just requested the info about what made past classes so great.

2) I've never said SIU's class will be or is the best ever in the valley.

3) If you read and comprehend, you will find which posters started this debate in this thread, and be able to list them and follow up to them.

4) I agree the players you listed would be great at any time.

5) I assume you will agree that the college basketball landscape 25-30 years ago, was quite a bit different than it is now, and that making the NBA is a completely different animal now, than it was then.

6) I assume you will also agree that the MVC was held in a different light back then as well, because of the absence of the BCS machine, and that affected the ability to recruit players like X.

7) I also assume that you agree, that in "TODAY'S" MVC climate, that at least on paper, what SIU has been able to do in recruiting is impressive, at least in today's standards and climate.

[iSASO]

Yes, SIU is definitely one of the Top 20 mid-majors of the past 20 years.

[WSUbballer]

7) I also assume that you agree, that in "TODAY'S" MVC climate, that at least on paper, what SIU has been able to do in recruiting is impressive, at least in today's standards and climate.

You cannot call something 'impressive' until it actually occurs. The recruiting hasn't been proved 'impressive' until we actually see how it performs. Did last year escape your little mind so quickly already? What a surprise..

[Dawgbit]

Yes, SIU is definitely one of the Top 20 mid-majors of the past 20 years.

SIU is not a mid-major.:bash:

[WSUfan]

SIU is not a mid-major.:bash:

Keep trying; you might get there. :innocent:

:lol:

[Dawgbit]

Keep trying; you might get there. :innocent:

:lol:

Speak for thyself, Wheat-Thin.

[WSUfan]

Speak for thyself, Wheat-Thin.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Hope you're enjoying the summer. :yes:

[todderson]

If creighton is the favorite next year I would think they have to be for the next couple years. Next years Senoirs are Josh Dotzler, Booker Woodfox and the human victory cigar Dustin Sitzmann. Depending on how recruits work out for everyone else Creighton would appear to have a shot at back-to-back regular season crowns. I doubt it will happen but heres hoping.
:jays:

[Divergence]

If creighton is the favorite next year I would think they have to be for the next couple years.

Pre-season favorite never wins. Plus SIU has the best recruiting class ever and they will dominate for the next 4 years at least.

[underdawg2]

DUCK!:lol:

[Saluki762]

Pre-season favorite never wins. Plus SIU has the best recruiting class ever and they will dominate for the next 4 years at least.

If we are still in the Valley in 4 years. I am thinking ACC or Big East.:lol:

:salukis::valley:

[MoValley John]

A year or so ago, SIU fans were battling it out with MSU fans to have the worst sense of humor on the board. Few, if any were funny. Fewer still could handle a barb thrown their way and all in all, were a bunch of posters with their panties in a wad. What a difference a year makes; you guys have lightened up are are actually decent. MSU has now broken the tie and holds a stranglehold on the Valley Talk Panties in a Bunch award. I don't know who to congratulate, the Salukis or Bears.

[WSUfan]

If we are still in the Valley in 4 years. I am thinking ACC or Big East.:lol:

:salukis::valley:

ACC without a doubt. Will WSU still play SIU, just for old times sake? :fear:

[Divergence]

If we are still in the Valley in 4 years. I am thinking ACC or Big East.:lol:

:salukis::valley:


Why sell yourself short to the big east, I'm sure after the B12 and SEC hears the rumors that the ACC wants you, there will be a bidding war.

[TNMSUFAN]

A year or so ago, SIU fans were battling it out with MSU fans to have the worst sense of humor on the board. Few, if any were funny. Fewer still could handle a barb thrown their way and all in all, were a bunch of posters with their panties in a wad. What a difference a year makes; you guys have lightened up are are actually decent. MSU has now broken the tie and holds a stranglehold on the Valley Talk Panties in a Bunch award. I don't know who to congratulate, the Salukis or Bears.

I just don't think it is really that funny to Google a subject then post a dumb pic about it...I will take the "worst sense of humor trophy" if I am supposed to laugh at your pics

[MoValley John]

I just don't think it is really that funny to Google a subject then post a dumb pic about it...I will take the "worst sense of humor trophy" rather than laugh at your pics

Fixed.

Oh, and just to be consistent, here you go!

http://gallery.photo.net/photo/6995925-lg.jpg

[Dawgbit]

ACC without a doubt. Will WSU still play SIU, just for old times sake? :fear:

Maybe a one-and-done, but I doubt it.

Southern is currently in preliminary discussions on a 2 game, neutral site series with Kentucky. Louisville (neutral haha), and St. Louis are the sites.

[MSNSaluki]

A year or so ago, SIU fans were battling it out with MSU fans to have the worst sense of humor on the board. Few, if any were funny. Fewer still could handle a barb thrown their way and all in all, were a bunch of posters with their panties in a wad. What a difference a year makes; you guys have lightened up are are actually decent. MSU has now broken the tie and holds a stranglehold on the Valley Talk Panties in a Bunch award. I don't know who to congratulate, the Salukis or Bears.

Can you change your name to Bill Dance?:lol:

[WakanTanka]

Not that actually talking about the players and possible team combinations coming back would fit very well in this thread .... but, I'll give it a shot on one thought at least ....

Except for Mullins, there are lots of questions at point guard at the top (top from last year and/or possible predicted top for next year). Point guards win close games. Emmenecker was obviously magic last year. What about next year for Drake? Can somebody consistently corral P'nut and the rest at Creighton? What does Ill. State do at point? Bradley? Is there enough around Mullins to make SIU good again?

You can talk about competition between Josh Young and Osiris and P'nut for player of the year, but the one who excels will be the one whose point guard can deliver it.

p.s. Don't forget that Josh Young played hurt most of the year last year and was still outstanding. The man can shoot. And Bucky Cox is perfectly suited to the Valley type "inside" (and outside) game.

[WSUfan]

http://www.kansas.com/sports/lutz/story/460490.html
"I got an early start this week in trying to get a handle on Wichita State's new -- or almost new -- basketball roster.

............

I just know this: The buzz around the team is excitement, anticipation, promise.
All the new faces have given Wichita State, coming off a tough season, a jolt of enthusiasm. It's still to be determined whether these guys can really play or not. But this will be a team with two 7-footers (Garrett Stutz and Ehimen Orukpe, should he be eligible to play). It will be a team with two point guards who could be interchangeable as 2-guards (Reggie Chamberlain and Clevin Hannah). It will be a team with two freshman backcourt players who, in the future, could be excellent scorers (Toure Murry and David Kyles). It will be a team that includes an exciting transfer forward (A.J. Hawkins), who is eligible to play after sitting out last season.
It will be a team that returns three players who were definitely on the upswing when last season ended (Clemente, Durley and Ellis) and one who was on the upswing before suffering a season-ending knee injury (Mantas Griskenas). It's a team with a sharpshooter (Hatch).

............

Take this opinion for what it's worth, but I'm guessing WSU is back on the rise. There will be growing pains, but at least this team will grow. And by January, exciting things could be happening.

[Aargh]

I don't care where anybody predicts WSU in the pre-season. A low pick seems likely.

I realize SIU has the best recruiting class in the history of the Valley, let alone the nation, but WSU's recruiting class ain't chopped liver.

The final rankings for 2007 HS players in Texas put Kyles at #11 and Murry at #18. For comparison, Couisnard was (to the best anyone can recall) around #27 in Texas his HS Sr year. The early expectation is that those guys won't get much PT.

Before Hawkins transferred to WSU, he averaged double-digit scoring as a starter in the A-10.

Stutz was rated in the top 40 HS Centers in the nation - he will be one of the first 3 options at that position.

Clevin Hannah was the PG for the JuCo team that was rated #1 most of the year. Also played SG quite a bit. He got owned by Reggie Chamberlain in the NJCAA post-season games, so Marshall signed Chamberlain.

Orukpe has been playing pickup games against Paul Miller, who's now in Vegas playing with the Knicks summer development team. Orukpe can hold his own playing D against Miller.

WSU has a good class coming in, but there's no way those guys can compete with the best recruiting class in the history of the nation. I am prepared for a 10 - 20 point beatdown from SIU for 8 - 12 games over the next 4 years.

[Dawgbit]

http://www.kansas.com/sports/lutz/story/460490.html
"I got an early start this week in trying to get a handle on Wichita State's new -- or almost new -- basketball roster.

............

I just know this: The buzz around the team is excitement, anticipation, promise.
All the new faces have given Wichita State, coming off a tough season, a jolt of enthusiasm. It's still to be determined whether these guys can really play or not. But this will be a team with two 7-footers (Garrett Stutz and Ehimen Orukpe, should he be eligible to play). It will be a team with two point guards who could be interchangeable as 2-guards (Reggie Chamberlain and Clevin Hannah). It will be a team with two freshman backcourt players who, in the future, could be excellent scorers (Toure Murry and David Kyles). It will be a team that includes an exciting transfer forward (A.J. Hawkins), who is eligible to play after sitting out last season.
It will be a team that returns three players who were definitely on the upswing when last season ended (Clemente, Durley and Ellis) and one who was on the upswing before suffering a season-ending knee injury (Mantas Griskenas). It's a team with a sharpshooter (Hatch).

............

Take this opinion for what it's worth, but I'm guessing WSU is back on the rise. There will be growing pains, but at least this team will grow. And by January, exciting things could be happening.


NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP! :fear: Very heady stuff indeed.

Obviously Cold has taken a job with the local rag. :bounceblue:

9th place in the MVC to national champions, impressive.

[WSUbballer]

NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP! :fear: Very heady stuff indeed.

Obviously Cold has taken a job with the local rag. :bounceblue:

9th place in the MVC to national champions, impressive.

If you really are into hearing about fans talking about national championships, take a stroll on over to SalukiTalk. It won't take long finding that stuff there. :yes:

[jb399]

If you really are into hearing about fans talking about national championships, take a stroll on over to SalukiTalk. It won't take long finding that stuff there. :yes:

Is it just me or does something seem odd around here? Baller always accuses others of stalking and having a man-crush on him, but apparently he reads other school's forum. Also, he looks at people's profiles to see there location, checks the sex offenders registry for that location, and searches for an image to use as his display picture. Anyone else see in hypocrisy here?

[WSUbballer]

Is it just me or does something seem odd around here? Baller always accuses others of stalking and having a man-crush on him, but apparently he reads other school's forum. Also, he looks at people's profiles to see there location, checks the sex offenders registry for that location, and searches for an image to use as his display picture. Anyone else see in hypocrisy here?

And then you have this newb jb who jumps into the mix way out of left field. He's batting a smidge under .108 and he wants to attempt to play in the majors.

Being a fan of Evansville, automatically makes anything he says meaningless. But it's worth a response none the less.. Reading other school's forums means I'm stalking them? Ask DJA about other schools' forums. He can tell you a lot. I read them on occasion yes, like most on here. I can't find Evansville's. I don't think Evansville has one. That says a lot right there. The location of someone is located in the top right corner of every post. No need to peruse through someone's profile for it. Nice try though. Must be your new hobby. My avatar is more for humor than anything else. You wouldn't know the meaning behind it because you only check in once a month.

So in reality, you're defining the meaning of the word 'hypocrite' yourself. It looks like you've studied me very well.

Thanks for your monthly check-in. Please come back soon and play again. And enjoy your life of being an (:lol:) Evansville Aces fan. (:lol:.. )

[MoValley John]

I read EVERY Valley team's message board. That is, except Evansville's and of lately, Missouri State's. I quit on Missouri State after the last time they crashed and changed names. It was just too painful to read the whining. That said, I don't post on any team boards. Well, I did post on the Bluejay board for a week while Valley Talk was down. All I did was fought with a Husker fan- most posts they had all year long. :lol:

Anyway, I'd love to get a link to the Evansville board, can someone help me out?

[MoValley John]

See! I just pulled this off of Shockernet! CO|db|OOded posted this over there. I'm hardly obsessed with any team, just interested in the Valley as a whole. I would question whether or not this is in fact a three, as Cod labeled it, or simply a long two, but I digress.
<OBJECT height=344 width=425>
&ampnbsp
<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/1yUbCWJfBwM&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0x2b405b&color2=0x6b8ab6" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></OBJECT>
Are there any videos like this on Acenet? I can't seem to find it.

[WSUfan]

NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP! :fear: Very heady stuff indeed.

Obviously Cold has taken a job with the local rag. :bounceblue:

9th place in the MVC to national champions, impressive.

Wow. You have a lot of confidence in the Shocks!! Glad to have you aboard the Shocker Train. :grin:

[jb399]

And then you have this newb jb who jumps into the mix way out of left field. He's batting a smidge under .108 and he wants to attempt to play in the majors.

Being a fan of Evansville, automatically makes anything he says meaningless. But it's worth a response none the less.. Reading other school's forums means I'm stalking them? Ask DJA about other schools' forums. He can tell you a lot. I read them on occasion yes, like most on here. I can't find Evansville's. I don't think Evansville has one. That says a lot right there. The location of someone is located in the top right corner of every post. No need to peruse through someone's profile for it. Nice try though. Must be your new hobby. My avatar is more for humor than anything else. You wouldn't know the meaning behind it because you only check in once a month.

So in reality, you're defining the meaning of the word 'hypocrite' yourself. It looks like you've studied me very well.

Thanks for your monthly check-in. Please come back soon and play again. And enjoy your life of being an (:lol:) Evansville Aces fan. (:lol:.. )

Oh, so its meaningless but yet deserves quite a lengthly response in return? I guess I reeled in a better big one with that post.

Sorry a little thing called a life inhibits me from reaching Supreme Nerd God of Internet Message boards. Yes, in fact my lack of posts clearly displays my lack of knowledge. Everyone knows message board posts equal knowledge.

[MoValley John]

Everyone knows message board posts equal knowledge.

See, just a few more posts and you're already thinking more clearly! Keep it up and some day you just might be as smart as me! :clap::clap::clap::lol::lol::lol:

[MoValley John]

The Aces lost all their history and tradition when they cut off the sleeves. I predict the Aces will never finish above 7th in the league and never make even an NIT run until they sew them sum biatches back on! This year, I predict the Aces at a cozy 10th place finish. Sleeveless basturds.
Bring Back the Sleeves!!!!

[MoValley John]

Barry Hinson says: "I'll coach the Aces if I can sew the sleeves back on. Until then, Eff 'em!"

[TNMSUFAN]

Spencer Laurie was granted his extra year today...good for the Bears and gives us a very experienced guard back

http://www.news-leader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080721/BLOGS0701/80721024