Mid Major: Coaches Move On

[Ace Dad]

The MVC has teams that can play with and beat some of the nations' best. However, our schools cannot generate enough money to keep our best coaches.

So, will we always be viewed as a mid-major?

Or, will we one day be a "destination conference" where good coaches win, grow old, and retire?

Destination jobs include Duke University, Kentucky University, Kansas (?), Syracuse University, and you name some others. It is a destination job if the coach has no need to look for a bigger and better coaching position.

Will we ever get there?

I say "no."

It is all about the "dollar bill" y'all.

[XSaluki]

Money comes mainly if National TV networks broadcast more games. This requires interest in the MVC from a National audience. Right now we are doing everything required to keep the Valley in the national spotlight. The question is will we carry it into more televised games next year, and the year after? I think so.

However, it will require the same level of Valley strength for at least 4-5 years to see a real turnaround (ala Conf USA in the 90s).

Pre 2005 Conf USA level was good enough for most Conf USA jobs to become destination jobs. I think we can achieve at least that.

[bigbearfan]

Syracuse is not a "destination" job... North Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, Indiana, and now you can call UCONN a destination job. not syracuse. they only have one national title under boheim.

[WSUfan]

If I recall correctly, some Shocker fans say WSU could pay MT up to $800,000 - $1,000,000 per year if he shows good success (national title??). Is this enough to keep a coach if he has recruiting success and other things are going well?

[TrueBlueJay]

12 years and counting (with my fingers crossed).

[gosmsgo]

football is where that money comes from in most cases.

Example - mu sucks in basketball but still has more than enough money to pay a bb coach 1-2 mill a year. Why, because 3/4 of the big 12 conference will be in bowl games and teams like texas, oklahoma etc win national championships.

even the bottom tier schools in the big 12 make butt loads of money.

The mvc simply getting a tv deal isnt going to generate the type of money that the bcs schools have imo.

[cjp27]

I pesonally think WSU will pay Turgeon whatever it takes to keep him.

If he leaves it won't be because of $$$, it will be because of easier recruiting, easier scheduling, more national exposure, IMO.

However, what we have done in the NCAAs this year may go a long way to knocking down the recruiting and exposure barriers. 25 years ago, nobody referred to WSU as a mid major, it was a big-time nationally respected program. I'd like to think we're back on the road to that kind of reputation now.

:valley: :shockers:

[getreal4]

Most Valley schools can't find the $$$ UNI is a perfect example. Extremely successful and still can't afford to pay competitve Valley scale, much less national scale. UNI basketball donations were still minimal for season tickets this past season. Hopefully with the new arena, fans will start donating to get season tickets.

Creighton has found the $$$ to stay close to destination level. Wichita St, the former sleeping giant, :grin: definitely has the resources available to keep MT. Revenues have to be way up in Wichita, keep Turgeon and dance again next year, we'll all be at the mercy of the 2 ton guerilla aka WSU. Point is, there's money in Wichita and they support the Shocks. :shockers:

Don't know about many of the other schools, but Drake's situation is currently bleak. Season tickets sales, donations, advertising all increased with the hiring of Dr Tom. That honeymoon has ended and revenues are declining. And we still have the added expense of Dr Tom's salary. Winning would solve the problem. :original: I do like the concept of season ticket revenue tied to a coaches compensation package. Sell 2000 added season tickets at $ 200 per and the increased donations pays a lot of salary.

[Studgunners]

Syracuse is not a "destination" job... North Carolina, Kansas, Kentucky, Duke, Indiana, and now you can call UCONN a destination job. not syracuse. they only have one national title under boheim.



Did you ever hear of the Carrier Dome and 30-33,000 fans per game? It's the greatest recruiting tool ever, along with being on TV all the time. It's definitely a destination job.

[C0|db|00ded]

KU a destination job? Roy Williams and Larry Brown didn't think so.


T


...:original:

[shockerfan13]

I think that just about any school can be a destination school depending on the interests and priorities of the coach. Obviously MOST coaches view the Valley and other "mid-major" conferences as a stepping stone to the BcS conferences. Others may well find the Valley as a perfect fit and decide to stay. Now that the Valley is growing each year in competitiveness and getting multiple bids to the NCAA tournament we may see coaches stay longer than what they would have 10 years ago. But again, it depends on the goals, priorities and interests of each coach. Money is obviously a big motivator and factor, but some people (granted not many these days it seems) out there still value other things over money.

[Dr. Frankenvalley]

Unfortunately for the Valley, I think Altman is the exception to the rule. Although, he's even been real close to leaving his great situation when a program like Illinois comes calling.

Because of Turgeon's ties to the state I could see a similar scenario there although not for an Altman-like period of time.

But unless there's some great change in the economics of the way college basketball is these days, the MVC will let these guys get their program building chops and then they will go. The money alone dictates that.

Plus, these coaches do want to prove they can do the exact same thing in larger conferences. It's an ego thing for them.

I think most of the time it will be a case like SIU. Be happy you had Bruce Weber for a few years and then hope you can find quality people like Painter and Lowery to come after him and keep it going. That's the blue print the MVC must follow because we're not talking about the same resources for these schools here. Maybe that gap will keep closing, but it's still in play now.

[StLouBlue]

I agree that the MVC schools are not going to be destination type jobs for head coaches. That said I think each school has done a good job of locating a coach that should stick around for a while.

Altman is a NE guy and is getting paid good money. Teams play in front of large crowds and gets along great with whole athletic dept. Because of these positives, Altman can be real picky about whatever job he wants, doesn't have to jump at first good paying BCS conference job.

UNI had many positives with McDermott, an alum, opening a new arena next year, had more money promised longer he stayed. It just so happened that ISU opened up one of the few schools he probably would have jumped to.

Les and Lowery are also both alumni of their schools, which should make it that much harder to jump when the big schools come calling. Not sure of the salary of either, but I would guess both will be getting raises of some kind after this season.

Turgeon has set himself up in a good situation with a lot of returning talent. Plays in a great home court and school will probably be getting his salary to the top or close to it in the MVC. Is in a good enough situation that like Altman he can be very picky about his next job, if he decides to leave.

Hinson at Mo St, not sure. I know in years past there were lots of fans that wanted him gone, so I am not too sure how hard they will really work to keep him. I wouldn't be surprised if he jumps to KSU if offered. He has shown to be a very good recruiter and his game day coaching has seemed to really improve. Mo St will be opening a new arena in near future so this should help attract or retain their head coaches.

Overall then, I guess the MVC is not a destination job, but I think most head coaching jobs at least equal that of mid-level BCS conference jobs. In other words, we shouldn't lose any more head coaches to schools like Texas A&M, Vandy, Purdue and these types of schools. I put ISU just a step above the others by the way.

[okstarsfan]

The MVC has teams that can play with and beat some of the nations' best. However, our schools cannot generate enough money to keep our best coaches.

So, will we always be viewed as a mid-major?

Or, will we one day be a "destination conference" where good coaches win, grow old, and retire?

Destination jobs include Duke University, Kentucky University, Kansas (?), Syracuse University, and you name some others. It is a destination job if the coach has no need to look for a bigger and better coaching position.

Will we ever get there?

I say "no."

It is all about the "dollar bill" y'all.
Unless an MVC school comes up with a bunch of dollars, I think the only chance for an MVC school are coaches that are either alums or locals.

SIU has a chance here, since they have Lowery in place. However, SIU needs to offer something competitive once other schools start calling.

Not sure about the others and where their coaches arrived from....

[shootingbear]

There is no way that we can keep a good coach, especially since we have two title ix idiot women who essentially threaten the university with a law suit if the men's and women's coachs are not paid the same.

i hope our new president decides differently and tells them to stick it.

[C0|db|00ded]

There is no way that we can keep a good coach, especially since we have two title ix idiot women who essentially threaten the university with a law suit if the men's and women's coachs are not paid the same.

i hope our new president decides differently and tells them to stick it.

we have two title ix idiot women who essentially threaten the university with a law suit if the men's and women's coachs are not paid the same.

That whole issue puts me in a rage.. a perfect example of how government can fail the people by not just STAYING OUT OF IT!!!


T


...:cursing:

[hondo]

This last month has helped Barry tremendously. I don't see the vast improvements in gametime adjustments or in player development, but I will say that he's done a bang up job of recruiting. The biggest problem is that he's recruited a bunch of players that want to run and isn't a running coach. He struggles with that tempo and really exascerbates his inability to make consistent adjustments gametime due to how fast things are going. He's far more comfortable with a slow methodical game where D is king. He's fortunate that at the end of the year everyone was far more concerned with MSU's tempo than their D. That put us into position to make it into the NCAA tournament. Mc D flat outcoached him in the quarterfinal game when he adjusted to the change in play style.

Anyway, Barry isn't in great shape, but he's not treading water either. I don't think he'll see an extension this the last year of his contract until next year close to the end of the season if he sees one at all, but with the talent he has and who he gets back next year I'd say if he doesn't leave this year he will have the opportunity to and probably will after the next one. He won't get a stronger group than he has next year, so that's definitely his best chance to move up to a BCS school.

[Fraydog]

Unless an MVC school comes up with a bunch of dollars, I think the only chance for an MVC school are coaches that are either alums or locals.

SIU has a chance here, since they have Lowery in place. However, SIU needs to offer something competitive once other schools start calling.

Not sure about the others and where their coaches arrived from....

Exactly. If alumni don't step up for SIU and decide to pay Lowery the big bucks to keep him, then forget about getting to Gonzaga or Elite BCS level. Facilties are also a concern, but at least the SIU Board of Trustees that govern both SIUC and SIUE have approved the first phase of Saluki Way that ensures that Saluki Way is no longer a preliminary plan but a part of the school's larger "Southern at 150" master plan. However, we have our share of anti-development, anti-growth hippies who are trying to stand in the way of progress here like what is going on with Title IX at MSU. Hopefully our administration presses forward and makes sure that the voices of these hippies aren't listened to. So at the May meeting we have to approve the financing for Saluki Way which includes increases in student fees... I know some might complain but at $44 a semester, it's an investment in SIU that students can afford.

RDR asked the eternal question, "Is SIU sliding into the abyss?" If we don't upgrade our arena and upgrade Lowery's salary to keep him employed at SIU we may just end up there.

[shroomcap]

football is where that money comes from in most cases.



Bingo! Football is the thing that drives D1 athletics. There is no way for the MVC to be able to consistently compete with BCS schools because we don't have D1 football. To be honest, over the long haul, it will be hard to compete with CUSA because of this.

[dogdays]

The money is there for CLO if PK wants to up the salary...but...that doent appear to be his style(one i dont agree with) ....there was a rumour that CLO had just gotten another increase but so far no word....PK has access to funds through the President as well as the foundation(alums) he can do it if he wants to. He didnt with Painter and got burned ...will he with CLO...time will tell.

[Majik45]

Supposedly Bradley will be able to keep Les because he only got into coaching so he could do it at his alma mater. He said in one of his opening press conferences that the Bradley job was a destination job for him. If Bradley continues it's current success for a year or two, we'll see if that is true.

[DUShock]

Supposedly Bradley will be able to keep Les because he only got into coaching so he could do it at his alma mater. He said in one of his opening press conferences that the Bradley job was a destination job for him. If Bradley continues it's current success for a year or two, we'll see if that is true.

Again, such issues are "nice" problems to have. The way I look at it, Coaches come and coaches go so why not just win a lot for my program and move on with a positive note.

Just my two cents :naughty:

Go Non-BCS!

Go Valley!!

Go Shocks!!!!

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

Bingo! Football is the thing that drives D1 athletics. There is no way for the MVC to be able to consistently compete with BCS schools because we don't have D1 football. To be honest, over the long haul, it will be hard to compete with CUSA because of this.

There's a huge financial difference between "1-A football" and "BCS football". Take a look at the Sun Belt, the WAC, the MAC, and C-USA -- all sponsor 1-A football, but how many of them have basketball programs superior to the Valley? They've got 1-A football, but Valley coaches aren't going to look at Louisiana Tech or Fresno State or Akron or TCU as an upward move.

Most Division I football programs lose money. The ones who make money are the BCS teams -- and most of them only turn a profit because they're well-oiled by the bowls. For every Nebraska or Notre Dame, there's a Kent State or a Rice. Instead of throwing money into the black hole of football, Valley schools would be better off raising endowment funds for their athletic programs.

I don't worry about competing with C-USA in basketball. Memphis has a fantastic team right now, but it was built before the conference imploded. They won't stay at their current level, and the rest of the conference is a mishmash of wannabes and usedta-bes. In five or six years, they'll be the MAC South.

[NoBSU]

There is no way that we can keep a good coach, especially since we have two title ix idiot women who essentially threaten the university with a law suit if the men's and women's coachs are not paid the same.

i hope our new president decides differently and tells them to stick it.

So what! Where would MSU get the money to hire or retain a successful coach?

Not the university's budget. It comes from boosters which make it easy for a university to structure a total package that includes the university salary which can match the women's coaches salary. That avoids the Title IX lawsuit. I have seen some coach packages reported where the university salary is 1/6th of the total deal. The problem at MSU is a failure to have the willing boosters to pay the current coach. You could easily get Hinson a new cadillac but that's about it.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

The problem at MSU is a failure to have the willing boosters to pay the current coach.

Throwing more money at a coach doesn't make him better. The boosters are better off holding onto their cash and demanding results first.

[mid-major fan]

Altman is probably the one Valley exception to the rule. He's already been at a Big 12 school and very likely left on his own. And, of course, we don't really know how much he makes. A real destination job is at a school where EITHER the coach has a special affinity or loyality to the school OR where the compensation is such that it really can't be beaten by other schools. So, on the one hand, you can include all schools where the compensation is say $1.5 million or more but then you also have to include some schools where the compensation is less because it is the coach's "dream job".

[NoBSU]

Throwing more money at a coach doesn't make him better. The boosters are better off holding onto their cash and demanding results first.

That's my point. Hinson is paid at his performance level. Additional pay is not the Title IX trap that some posters worry about. It is more a lack of an energized base of boosters with money. Save a car dealer and a couple more guys, the pockets are sewn shut when it comes to Hinson.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

That's my point. Hinson is paid at his performance level. Additional pay is not the Title IX trap that some posters worry about. It is more a lack of an energized base of boosters with money. Save a car dealer and a couple more guys, the pockets are sewn shut when it comes to Hinson.

There are some much deeper "untapped wells" in Springfield. I look forward to the day when MSU can energize the outdoors-equipment guy and the auto-parts guy. Oh, and the Great Game guy too. :grin:

[mproviz]

If title IX says that coaches for womens and mens teams should get the same amount of money that is the biggest pile of crap ever to go through legislation.

[Fraydog]

Title IX didn't even go through legislation, it was a ruling by judges who wanted to claim legislative powers through judicial activism, in fact Title IX is one of the sickest examples I can think of when I think of judicial activism.

I won't go any further on about it, there are plenty of sources on the Net that talk about the dangers posed by judicial activism.

[MSU Bleeds Maroon]

If title IX says that coaches for womens and mens teams should get the same amount of money that is the biggest pile of crap ever to go through legislation.

It doesn't. It doesn't make any mention of coaches -- if it did, you wouldn't see men coaching women's teams and women not coaching men's teams. If salary inequity were actionable, someone would have already filed a class-action suit against every Division I institution.

Title IX was intended to provide equitable scholarship opportunities for male and female student-athletes. That's it. It has become a spectre that "activists" invoke when they don't get what they want.

The MSU administration has gone out of its way to placate several such activists. That kowtowing is the basis for the rumor that the basketball coaches have to earn the same salary -- "they do earn similar salaries, therefore it must be Title IX-related." :no:

[artisgilmore]

Creighton got real lucky with Dana. KSU ruined him.

Coaches want to win. The money is nice but getting players is the real deal. And the MVC is loading up with better talent. Just hope the coaches stick around for the ride.

[DUShock]

Creighton got real lucky with Dana. KSU ruined him.

Coaches want to win. The money is nice but getting players is the real deal. And the MVC is loading up with better talent. Just hope the coaches stick around for the ride.

Amen!

[NoBSU]

It doesn't. It doesn't make any mention of coaches -- if it did, you wouldn't see men coaching women's teams and women not coaching men's teams. If salary inequity were actionable, someone would have already filed a class-action suit against every Division I institution.

Title IX was intended to provide equitable scholarship opportunities for male and female student-athletes. That's it. It has become a spectre that "activists" invoke when they don't get what they want.

The MSU administration has gone out of its way to placate several such activists. That kowtowing is the basis for the rumor that the basketball coaches have to earn the same salary -- "they do earn similar salaries, therefore it must be Title IX-related." :no:

But when the funds to hire who you want are coming from boosters then it involves structuring a package which can take the fear of costly litigation away. The university salaries can be the same but the total package involving media and foundation $$ can be hundreds of thousands apart. The whining about Title IX at MSU is a non-issue. If I were making the pay decisions at MSU then I would pay Coach Abe more than Hinson because she produces a tournament trip even in a tough injury plagued year.

[Jim Shorts]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but not ponying up to Painter wasn't the deal breaker. He was going to Purdue regardless.

Am I wrong?

[Studgunners]

Creighton got real lucky with Dana. KSU ruined him.

Coaches want to win. The money is nice but getting players is the real deal. And the MVC is loading up with better talent. Just hope the coaches stick around for the ride.


You're kidding right? Coaches want to MAKE MONEY. How else do you explain all the very successful college coaches (i.e. Pitino, Calipari, The guy from Stanford, Carlisimo, Larry Brown, etc) jumping to the NBA? How do you explain the coaching merry go round? Every coach in the MVC if successful will eventually leave. Perhaps Altman is the RARE exception to that rule, but it wouldn't surprise me if he left. Hasn't anyone been paying attention for like the last 20 years or so? Whenever a mid-major makes the Sweet 16 or even a big first round upset and they have a relatively youngish coach, all the big schools down in the dumps who've fired their coaches make a run at them. Where else do you think they are going to get coaches? Assistants rarely make the jump unless it's a mid-season deal. So wake up, the Valley is merely a stepping stone to the big-time money. Hopefully the alma mater will keep some longer (i.e. Lowery or Les), but even them it's just a matter of time.